Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: JHavard

These are the books of the OT in my bible - where are you seeing the other 5?

THE PENTATEUCH BOOKS

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy

THE HISTORICAL BOOKS

Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Tobit
Judith
Esther
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

BOOKS OF WISDOM AND POETRY

Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Wisdom of Solomon
Sirach (Ecclesiasticus)

THE PROPHETICAL BOOKS

Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Baruch
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zachariah
Malachi


221 posted on 10/18/2004 6:49:40 PM PDT by Stubborn (It Is The Mass That Matters)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 220 | View Replies ]


To: All

A little clarification of the Bible here.

Bel and the Dragon is part of the Book of Daniel. Protestants don't have it in theirs because it is not in the Hebrew Canon.

The Hebrew Canon was decided on by the Jews at the Council of Jamniah, circa 90 AD. It was specifically in reaction to, and to replace, the older Septuagint Greek Canon, which was the only Jewish "Bible" per se from the period of about 200 BC until 90 AD.
When the Gospels and epistles refer to "The Scriptures" they are certainly not referring to the New Testament...it wasn't written yet. And they were not referring to the Hebrew Canon or the Masoretic Text, because they weren't chosen or written yet either. They were referring to a rather amorphous bunch of Jewish Scriptures, the ONLY compendium of which was in general use was the Septuagint.

The canon of Jesus and the Apostles was the Septuagint Canon. There was no other until 90 AD, by which time, of course, Jesus and most of the Apostles were dead.

The Septuagint Bible has in it all of the books that are present in the Old Testament of the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles...Tobit, the Maccabbees, Judith, and the long versions of Daniel and Esther, among other things. This was generally used by the Church, and in various councils from Damascus to Carthage was verified. Jerome, alone, it is true, preferred the Hebrew Canon for the Vulgate, but importantly, he was overridden by the Pope (Pope Damasus) who followed the previous Councils.
More importantly, Jerome ACCEPTED the Pope and the Council's authority. When he made his Vulgate translation, it includes the books of the Septuagint that are not in the Hebrew Canon. So, yes, there is an argument in writing of Jerome in favor of the Hebrew Canon, against the much older Septuagint Canon (90 AD vs. 200 BC), but Jerome not only lost that argument, but accepted the opinion of the wider Church on the subject and made his translation of the full Septuagint Canon, and NOT the Hebrew Canon which he had EARLIER stated he preferred. He was convinced to change his mind.

I won't say that it's disingenuous to cite Jerome's argument. Clearly Jerome was sincere. And this was a long time ago, few people really know the whole history, and therefore that Jerome was persuaded to abandon his position and adopt the general teaching of the Church is not generally known.

We should point out that the original King James Translation of 1611 included the deuterocanonical books (the so-called "apocraypha") and it was only later that they were excluded, as the English Church itself became persuaded by the arguments of the Lutherans and others in favor of the Hebrew Canon.

The best argument for the Septuagint Canon of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is that it is almost 300 years older than the Hebrew Canon, it was the only Biblical compendium in existence in Jesus' day (so when Jesus refers to the Scriptures, or the Apostles do, they are referring to the Septuagint, the only Bible as such then in existence), and the Jews chose to get rid of the Septuagint Canon in favor of the Hebrew Canon (later the Masoretic Text) because there are elements in the deuterocanonical books that rather strongly favor the Christian argument over the Jewish opposition. The Jews at Jamnia chose the expedient of simply eliminating those books from their Bible so that the Christians would no longer be able to rely upon them in arguing for conversion from Jews.

Luther's decision in favor of the Hebrew Canon is interesting, but we needn't go into it here, because it's not germane to the topic.

Jesus' and John's and James' and Peter's Bible...the ONLY Bible at the time...was the Septuagint of circa 200 BC. Catholics and the Orthodox have always used that Canon. The Jews adopted their own, new and abridged Canon in 90 AD.
The Protestants later adopted the Hebrew Canon, and not the Septuagint Canon, for their own reasons, part of which was an understandable historical misunderstanding that the Hebrew Canon was actually older than the Septuagint Canon of the Catholics, but that turns out to have been a misconception.

Not much point in arguing about it, really.
It's unfair to cite to Jerome to argue for the Hebrew Canon, since he was himself persuaded to change his mind and his Vulgate is based on the Septuagint Canon.


222 posted on 10/18/2004 7:54:09 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Aure entuluva!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 221 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson