[Hermann the Cherusker]

Anything we have is from God. If there was something encoded in us such that if we sinned, we would die, only God could have made it thus. Certainly we did not have such power to ourselves. The sin was of course our own choice.

And if God is all-knowing, then He knew we would fail. Yet Yet, He created us anyway.

This plays into the line of thought that the Father created the universe for Christ to redeem it, knowing that sin would abound so that grace could abound all the more.

[Kolokotronis]

I don't see your conclusion following from what Kosta wrote, Hermann. From an Orthodox pov, Adam in his pre-Fall state was not a perfect, created being. +Ireneus of Lyon wrote ‘He was a child, not yet having his understanding perfected. It was necessary that he should grow and so come to his perfection" (Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, 12). Adam was created with the potentiality for perfection. God created man in His image as we know. This means, among other things that he possesses free will. Because God wanted "a son not a slave", the Orthodox Church rejects any doctrine of grace, or of creation, which might seem to infringe upon man’s freedom. As +Kallistos Ware writes,"To describe the relation between the grace of God and free will of man, Orthodoxy uses the term cooperation or synergy (synergeia); in Paul’s words: "We are fellow-workers (synergoi) with God" (1 Cor. 3:9). If man is to achieve full fellowship with God, he cannot do so without God’s help, yet he must also play his own part: man as well as God must make his contribution to the common work, although what God does is of immeasurably greater importance than what man does. "The incorporation of man into Christ and his union with God require the cooperation of two unequal, but equally necessary forces: divine grace and human will (A Monk of the Eastern Church, Orthodox Spirituality). The supreme example of synergy is the Mother of God" (A Monk of the Eastern Church, Orthodox Spirituality.

Now this theology would certainly seem at odds with any theory which might say that God set us up for a Fall, so that Christ could redeem us, wouldn't it, while what Kosta posits in in accord?

[kosta50]

This is precisely where our schism begins -- at the Beginning! Right from the start, our divergent experience of genesis takes us on a divergent path, divergent thinking and divergent conclusions.

Whereas, Catholicism holds that Adam and Eve were perfect, fully formed human adults, capable of rational judgment and knowing right from wrong, Orthodoxy holds that Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong and were therefore innocent. They did not know their nakedness, nor were they ashamed of it. They were like children. The idea of becoming child-like as a way of returning to God is not alien to Christian teaching.

Frankly, the scenario Hermann portrays is inconsistent with a God who will suffer so that our miserable souls can live. We don't have children expecting them to be perfect. We know they will grow into human beings if raised with love and gentle guidance and even punishment, but a loving one. But we don't want brain-dead children who simply cling us. We want them to love us freely -- and to get there, like theosis, it takes time. Theosis is spiritual growth, spiritual coming of age, becoming like Christ, as our children become like their parents, carrying on and internalizing their values and, in turn, raising their own children in love.

Thus, what happened in the Garden was a consequence of our childishness, an act of an innocent child disobeying a Parent, and wondering off where he was told not to go. Once separated from God, their souls died, and with it their bodies. Unable to return on thir own, lost in spiritual darkness, they had children in their own image, whose soul was dead and whose bodies were corrupt.

Of course God knew this would happen but it was necessary that He allow it to happen, not to set us up but because without sin we could never grow up spiritually. So, there is no guilt, no punishment -- just consequence. For how can an innocent child be guilty of sin if he or she doesn't know right from wrong? And are we guilty as parents for letting them learn life through idsappointment and failure, or do we create 45-year-olds living with their parents?

And, by all accounts, Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong until they ate the fruit. Otherwise, humans would be slaves to their own ignorance and their dependence on God would not be love. It is indeed an awesome engineering flowchart!