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To: Kolokotronis

Simple question again, are the souls of newly concevied unborn children infused with grace or bereft of grace?

This has nothing to do with reading Greek, and it cuts directly to the heart of the matter.


16 posted on 10/10/2004 7:43:25 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
I think you've asked the wrong question, at least from an Orthodox pov. Children are conceived in the image and likeness of God. The consequences of the sin of Adam are that our natures were corrupted so that we have a tendency to sin. I think it was +Kallistos Ware who wrote that God did not create us as puppets or automatons, but rather to be His partners in the theosis of creation, thus we were created with free will. Our inherited tendency to sin perverts that free will, but by the grace of Baptism we "Put on Christ" and are thus strengthened against our own nature to sin. Little babies who have not committed any sin, indeed are incapable of sin wouldn't seem to be in need of forgiveness by the grace of Baptism. In our Holy Saturday liturgy, we hear about the descent of Christ to the dead and the bursting of the bonds of Hell:

"Today Hades lets out a groan: "Would that I had not received the son of Mary: for when He came upon me He dissolved my power; He shattered the gates of bronze; the souls I had held captive, as God He raised up." Glory, Lord, to Your Cross and Your Resurrection.

Today Hades lets out a groan: "My sovereignty is destroyed. I received Him as a mortal, one among the dead; but this One I am powerless to contain; instead with Him I lose all I had governed. I had held the dead for ages, but behold, He resurrects all." Glory, Lord, to Your Cross and Your Resurrection.

Today Hades lets out a groan: "My might is swallowed up: the shepherd was crucified but raised up Adam. All I ruled over I have lost; all I was able in my power to consume, I have disgorged. The crucified One has emptied the graves. The sway of death is no more." Glory, Lord, to Your Cross and Your Resurrection."

The Icon of the Resurrection shows the gates of Hell burst open and Hell itself emptied, while the righteous dead stand around the Risen Christ. None of these people had been Baptized. So, from an Orthodox pov, the question of whether unbaptized babies are infused with or bereft of grace is really neither here nor there in the event they should die without committing sin, though I suspect that the Orthodox would say they don't know the answer to the question. But then again, we maintain that we don't know about the theosis of non Christian people either. These are matters the Orthodox Church leaves to God.

By the way, I do know that some Orthodox writers express Augustinian thought. As a general proposition, much of that stems from the fact that his writings were virtually unknown in the East until quite late (he wasn't translated into Greek until around 1300) while in other cases, such as that of Peter of Moghila, it appears that they wrote under Western theological influences.
22 posted on 10/11/2004 6:14:11 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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