Posted on 10/06/2004 2:16:19 PM PDT by skellmeyer
You shall treat the alien who resides with you no differently than the natives born among you; have the same love for him as for yourself; for you too were once aliens in the land of Egypt. I, the LORD, am your God.” (Leviticus 19:34)
Now, some people would find that kind of Scripture quoting offensive. Indeed, some would simply mutter “and the devil himself uses Scripture for his own devices.” And they would be right. A single verse does not an argument make. However, the debate about immigration is raging, and we have all heard from the Democratic, Republican, Libertarian and independent quarters. It might be worthwhile to find out what the Catholic take is.
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""You shall treat the alien who resides with you no differently than the natives born among you; have the same love for him as for yourself; for you too were once aliens in the land of Egypt. I, the LORD, am your God.” (Leviticus 19:34)"
Simply put, I agree with this. Illegals in this country get away with a LOT of stuff that we natives can't! Fair treatment would go a long way...
I will bear this in mind next time I find myself living in the old testament era as an exiled Jew.
Or are you just using your interpretation some Old Testament scripture to justify aliens breaking into this country against the will and over the objections of her people and sucking off the tit of her prosperity?
If the latter, did it occur to you that the scripture you cited may mean those strangers that visit or come with in the consent of the nation's people? 
Look, I know the Arch-Heretic Luther is still unpopular with the Vatican, but grow up. Protestant does not equal an atheist.
,...but that’s a good thing, not a bad one. We get rid of a culture of death and replace it with a culture of life.
Culture of life?! Are you nuts? Have you seen how cheap human life is in Latin America?
Sinaloa in Mexico is permeated with murder, revenge and drug smuggling, their folk music makes U.S. Gangster Rap sound like nursery rhymes.
From TJ down to Tierra del Fuego human life is treated like a commodity. The poor and uneducated are treated like pack animals or sex toys for the wealthy or tourists.
If this is the effect that Catholicism has upon a society then, no thanks.
This is bunk.
Let me say that I have known plenty of fine folks from Soutn of the Border over the years. Some of my nicest neighbors have been immigrants from Mexico. They work hard, they have great kids. I hope they're here legally and I trust they are.
Then I've known folks from South of the Border like the ones who had a rumble outside my apartment window some years ago. And I'm thinking, either these guys are here illegally, or the INS decided that we just didn't have enough crack dealers here.
Legal immigration with set numbers is fine. Legal immigration in which the newcomers become Americans is even better. Having our country overrun by an unlimited flow immgrants from an alien culture is not. And I'm not willing to sell out our American heritage so that, somehow, American Catholics might benefit from the superior version of the Mass and the spirituality of Hispanic Catholics. If American Catholics deem themselves deficient in those areas, they have my blessing to fix them - on their own time and on their own dime, not mine.
I am not unfeeling toward the economic and political plight of Latin America. But Latin America needs to buckle down and deal with its own problems -- problems that have existed in one form or another since the Spaniards packed up their tents and left -- and, in some cases, when the colonials were still there. That is the solution for Latin America, not shipping its surplus population to El Norte.
CRIMINAL INVADERS are not exiles.
Having our country overrun by an unlimited flow immgrants from an alien culture is not.
What is "alien" about Hispanic culture? It's as alien as, say, Irish culture was a century ago, which is to say, it isn't. It's certainly a lot more recognizable than Thai or Japanese or Chinese culture. The only thing "alien" about it is its Catholicism.
Now, to say that a lot of Catholics south of the border aren't living a Catholic life is only to say that they are sinful human beings, which is really no surprise. American Protestantism can't write home about being superior in that respect.
But ultimately, I think the major kick against the inflow of immigrants is the Catholic culture they bring with them. No one is complaining about Canadians coming across the border (although they do) precisely because Canadians aren't very Catholic in culture anymore. They're secular atheists like the rest of America.
Well, I find dead cow very tasty. And I hardly think a bull is a "defenseless animal." Anyone who says this has never been on the receiving end of a kick or a horn.
I will readily admit that rich Hispanics are no better than rich Americans when it comes to valuing human life. There, do you feel better now? :)
No, Protestant is the first step on the road to atheist. Protestantism is inherently dualistic, pitting spirit against flesh - faith alone is worthy, "reason is the whore of the Devil". The natural response to this dualistic world view is to reject it as erroneous, which it is. But this rejection itself goes overboard into Enlightenment philosophy - reason alone is worthy, faith is "the opiate of the masses."
Sorry, but atheism is simply the mirror image of the Protestantism which has infected the country from its founding.
Excellent post. That's my take on the matter- lots of legal immigration, NO illegal immigration.
You have an excellent grasp of American Christianity. Somehow the Puritans took the beauty that is true Christianity and turned it into something cold and ugly.
I've never had a Catholic (or Jew, for that matter) suggest I should be burned at the stake for my beliefs.
I'd like to agree with you, but I can't. Every time someone complains about Hispanic immigration, the phrase "alien culture" ALWAYS pops up. It popped up even in this small collection of comments. People oppose Hispanics more strongly than any other kind of legal or illegal immigrant precisely because they DO have an alien culture, but only in the sense that they are Catholic.
Consider the arguments that have been raised here - Hispanics are criminals (as if there was no crime in America before they arrived), Hispanics have an alien culture, they have a foreign language. These aren't arguments, these are examples of xenophobia.
As the column points out - and no one argues the fact - without immigration our economy will collapse in a generation. Either that, or massive involuntary euthanasia of the Baby Boom generation is required. Legal immigration is not enough to solve the problem.
Bush, like previous presidents, knows this. He also knows the country is xenophobic. So, he talks against illegals while refusing to do anything substantive about them because he has the best economic interests of the country at heart. If he followed the anti-immigration advice, this country would be in another Great Depression by the mid-point of the century.
It's as alien as, say, Irish culture was a century ago, which is to say, it isn't. It's certainly a lot more recognizable than Thai or Japanese or Chinese culture. The only thing "alien" about it is its Catholicism.
Now, to say that a lot of Catholics south of the border aren't living a Catholic life is only to say that they are sinful human beings, which is really no surprise. American Protestantism can't write home about being superior in that respect.
But ultimately, I think the major kick against the inflow of immigrants is the Catholic culture they bring with them. No one is complaining about Canadians coming across the border (although they do) precisely because Canadians aren't very Catholic in culture anymore. They're secular atheists like the rest of America."
I am not a Protestant, so I have no axe to grind here. But I'm sure that Protestants who go to church and read their Bibles and say their prayers and evangelize and do good deeds in the name of Jesus Christ will be surprised to find out that they are, in fact, atheists. How does the reasoning go here? "We believe in God. The Protestants don't believe as we believe. Therefore the Protestants don't believe in God." You may or may not be aware that some Orthodox theologians have said that Roman Catholicism is just an extreme form of Protestantism, so therefore...........but I don't want to go there. (I am actually pretty well-inclined toward Catholicism for a non-Catholic, but this kind of stuff causes me to take a step back.)
The problem with Protestantism is not Protestantism as such. It is that a lot of Protestants have departed from the principles and beliefs of the Reformation. A lot of them have departed from anything that resembles Christianity. Would Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, or Wesley feel at home with some of the people who claim them as spiritual ancestors?
But back on topic. I have never heard, until you brought it up, that the Catholicism of most Latin Americans is the underlying reason for moves to restrict their immigration. Like if they all turned Baptist tomorrow, there wouldn't be an issue anymore. Although I will acknowledge elements of anti-Catholicism in American history, I don't see this as pervasive and destructive as you seem to imply. If there has been opposition to Catholicism, I think it has been grounded on two things (I'm speaking more of the past than the present): 1. doctrinal differences (when the average Joe still cared about such things), and 2. the perception that allegiance to the Pope somehow meant influence of a foreign power in America. But let's look at the rest of the record. The presence of Catholics in America happened very early. Maryland was chartered in 1634 as a colony for English Catholics. The town I grew up in in southern Illinois was founded by French Catholics in 1699. I know some of their descendants. The Catholic Church has grown and prospered in the free air of America. In the skyline of my city, the steeples of Catholic Churches figure prominently. Everyone knows Cardinal George. How many can name the United Methodist bishop here? Or the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan? The Catholic Church is by far the single largest denomination in the county. It has massive influence. Its contributions in the areas of education, medical care, and charity are recognized and appreciated. However, most Americans, either by choice or default, are not Catholics. The same free environment -- which I would say is our heritage from our beginnings as British colonies and from the Reformation -- that allows you to live as a Catholic, also allows me to live as an Orthodox, allows a Jew to live as a Jew, allows an atheist to live as an atheist.
If there is any anti-Catholicism in America, it is coming from leftists and non-believers, and from the fringes of Fundamentalism, but I'm sure the average non-Catholic American Joe does not get up in the morning, face east, and hurl invectives at the Pope. Just as I am sure that when Joe thinks about immigration, he's not thinking, "It's gotta stop! There are too many Catholics here already!" To give an example of how Catholicism is not an issue, consider this: in 1960 a Catholic running for president felt the need to address concerns of people that his election might mean the Pope taking over the country. This year a Catholic is running, and I don't hear anyone making a big deal about it except Catholics who think his positions are not Catholic enough! (Can't argue with that!)
So what, then, are the issues that make massive, illegal Latin American immigration a problem for the U.S., and that makes these immigrants an "alien population."?
1. Call it xenophobic if you want -- but the language issue. There are plenty of immigrants -- legal and otherwise -- enrolled in free ESL classes. There are also plenty of people who have been here for years and have never made the effort to learn English. Why should they? They can get what they want in their own neighborhoods and, if they go out of their neighborhoods, there are bilingual signs, bilingual telephone messages, translators on duty at hospitals, etc. I understand the arguments that having Spanish available to these people is "good business." Maybe so. But I have not seen the speakers of any other language accommodated to this extent. In the course of a week, I come into contact with many people from many countries -- Albanians, Greeks, Serbs, Mongolians, Polish. I've never seen Mongolian instructions on an ATM and obviously if you had every possible language on an ATM, it would be as big as a drive-in movie screen! But what does the Mongolian person have to do to use the ATM? They have to know at least some English. You offer the solution that, in order to be good hosts to these "exiles," we need to learn Spanish. Americans do need to be more proficient in second languages, but I don't see why I, at my advanced age, should need to learn a second language in order to get around in my own country. And I've run into those situations -- like the checker at the supermarket who, as far as I could tell, spoke no English. Or the ultrasound technician that spoke some English but so poorly that my wife could not understand her. Like it or not, English is the language of the American culture, and people who don't learn it proficiently are doing themselves and the country no favors.
2. Massive illegal immigration, in many parts of the country, overloads the educational, medical, and social welfare systems. In some places these are not adequate to take care of the people who are already there. And, illegal immigrants, if they are working, are working "off the books" and are not paying income taxes. They are most likely uninsured, unable to bear the burden of any of the cost of medical care they need. So the cost of the services rendered to them is picked up by people--both legal immigrants and native-born citizens -- who are abiding by the laws and playing by the rules.
3. Uninforced laws (in this case, immigration laws) lead to disregard for the law generally.
4. There are elements of the Latin American community that have no interest in assimilation. By assimilation I don't mean newcomers abandoning their language, religion, customs. I mean their retaining these but within an American context. I mean their consciously becoming part of the larger American community outside their own. Have you ever heard of La Raza? How about MEChA? Do you know what and where Aztlan is? Aztlan is what is otherwise known as Arizona, New Mexico, southern California -- basically all of the territory lost by Mexico as a result of the Mexican War, and then some. Organizations like MEChA have as their aim the reclamation of that area. How will they do that? By massive population moves into that area from Mexico. Can't happen? It is happening. Lincoln said, "The Union is eternal." Ever heard of Kosovo? I don't mean to sound alarmist, but I don't think much good can come from a concentrated, unassimilated population.
I guess you can tell that I don't buy your thesis about the rosy future that is ours if we only open our doors. With few exceptions, I have not discussed the problems of the future, but the problems that already exist in America due to illegal immigration. I also don't buy the idea that, because of America's aging population, and the negative demographic shifts, that I run the risk of being snuffed out in my old age because I've become too much of a burden on society. The demographic problem is there, but it has more to do with oh,... about 30 million or so American children who didn't get born over the past 30 years. Americans, including their political and religious leaders, need to get their heads out of the sand and get to work on problems that, if left unsolved, are going to darkly cloud the future. While they're at it, maybe they can also get together with Latin American leaders to help our friends south of the border have a brighter future too. A future that is brighter because problems got dealt with, not because everyone moved out.
Continuing on. I know many hard working Mexicans who see themselves as a businessman with their own company someday. They are our natural allies. What I don't like about their culture is the "casa Chica", meaning when their wife's backside get's to be the size of a bus, they dump her and get a new one and a new bunch of kids. The first wife is left to fend with little or no support. This is not a rare event. Where I work, there are three ladies, busting their hump to support their kids. This happens in the gringo culture as well, but the man who does this is not a "muy macho hombre" in his neighborhood.(well maybe in the inbred areas) As to the lad of a Mexican household who seeks to get an education.. he's quickly pointed out as "not one of us, trying to be white etc. Even the LA Slimes is frequently doing stories about how hard it is for Mexican females to get support so they can get an education too. My final point: try driving on the LA Freeway. We have enough now.
" I think the major kick against the inflow of immigrants is the Catholic culture"
Tell us you're joking. That's a weaker and nastier arguement than, "they're good for the economy".
Besides, I've not seen anyone complain about "immigration". We're talking about ILLEGAL ALIENS, and I don't care what religion they pretend to practice.
Now, to get back on topic, you've never heard about anti-Catholicism being the prime mover behind opposition to illegal immigration for the same reason no one talks about the nitrogen content in the atmosphere - it's part of the air we breathe. Catholics may have been part of the founding of Maryland, but it was also the only colony where Catholics were permitted to hold office - the other 12 original states forbad that. The entire public school system was created in order to convert Irish Catholics to WASP ways, which is why the entire parochial school system was created - in reaction to the WASP grade schools. It was actually ILLEGAL for a parent to send his kids to a Catholic school in Washington and Wisconsin during parts of the 1800's. The degree to which anti-Catholicism ran rampant in this country in that century is hard to over-state.
Similarly, every Catholic presidential candidate has had to publicly renounce his fate or be defeated at the polls. Al Smith in 1930 lost because he refused to do this. Kennedy won only by insisting he would refuse to be a Catholic while in office. Kerry is running on the same Kennedy plank, only harder - he's not just refusing to acknowledge Catholic doctrine, he's actively attacking it.
If Mexicans were Baptists or better yet, Episcopalians, the attacks on illegal immigration would largely disappear. Spanish language is on the ATMs because Hispanics are the largest minority in America. Do you honestly think a bank gives a hang about being PC? It's in it for the money. If it paid to have the ATMs in Mongolian, they would all be in Mongolian tomorrow.
I am perfectly aware that a lot of Hispanics want Texas and the rest of the Southwest back. Ironically, they are doing to us what we did to them a century ago. Think about how we got Texas - it was part of Catholic Mexico. A bunch of anti-Catholic Southerners didn't like the anti-slavery Catholics on their border, so they moved into Mexican Texas precisely to force the area into secession. They succeeded. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it's just the case.
Given how we export contraception and abortion, and given how it has destroyed our population growth (and Mexico's), any new territory grabs will fail precisely because there won't be enough young people to fight. Thirty years of abortion have already guaranteed the need for involuntary euthanasia of baby-boomers. Even if we stopped all contraception/abortion today, it would take 30 years to make up the losses. The Baby Boomers will get euthanized - there's no question of that anymore.
These urban intellectuals think that just because their neighborhood is trashed, the whole nation is going up in smoke. There is nothing and no one so narrow-minded and narrow-visioned as a city slicker, especially someone from a REALLY big city.
Everyone complains about these trash poor Hispanics crossing the border with nothing but the shirt on their backs. Fine. But you can't then blame the TRAFFIC problem on them - they came across WITHOUT CARS, remember? No money for gas, much less a grand in loose change for a 1981 Ford pickup. They had to have earned quite a bit of money in a substandard wage job in order to afford to buy and drive an automobile, and you want to send hard workers like these home?
Please.
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