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To: Destro
Of course the Church both east and west say that the religion is not being changed but defined more accurately. What the ecumenical councils do is try to correct errors in the perfect religion that imperfect man through imperfect understanding corrupts.

How can the perfect church have imperfect doctrine? Doctrine that might be a part of that Church for over a millennium? Maybe this was just poor phrasing on your part, but how perfect can a church be if it takes them 1900 years to figure out what is OK when it concerns contraception? This is not meant directly as a comment towards the Orthodox, but can also be applied generally.

Orthodox are not fundamentalists.

Right, I understand this. But what I mean by this, and this could be because I'm coming from a distinctly Catholic POV, is that if something is "truth" it always has to be truth. It can't become nuanced like a John Kerry speech. While no one expects the Orthodox or the Catholics to be fundamentalists like Muslims are (I think it was you or someone else here who made that analogy, a good one, I think) or even the Amish, and live in frozen time however many centuries ago. But there is a difference, IMO, in changing details like what language the Mass is in, or what kind of vestments priests wear, and things like that don't change the essentials of the faith, and changing views on abortion, homosexuality, contraception, etc. (And again, this is not directed specificaly at the Orthodox).

I think the best way to clear it up, is to dispense with the nuances and just ask you outright, which types of contraception are allowed:

condoms?
IUDs
Birth control pills?
Morning After pill?
That new birth control patch?
Spermicide creams?
Any others I might have missed?
50 posted on 10/01/2004 9:08:44 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
How can the perfect church have imperfect doctrine?

The Church is imperfect because it is made up of imperfect men. The doctrine is perfect but men are not - not even the Pope.

Infallibility on doctrine is only given to an ecumenical council alone. They ecoumenical councils remove errors and define devine truth as they have done 8 times since Pentacost.

53 posted on 10/01/2004 9:23:43 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Conservative til I die; Vicomte13; kosta50; Destro

The problem is that Orthodoxy has always been "nuanced" in the area of application of rules. We are not legalistic in the way the West is (I mean no condemnation by the use of the term legalistic). We have a doctrine called "economia" whereby a bishop may give a pass on the rules when application of the rules would pose a graver harm than a violation. I know that it is customary for couples wishing to use contraception to discuss the matter with their respective spiritual fathers before actually using them and then only if, standing for the bishop, a sort of economia is given.

Orthodoxy and bio-ethics was the subject of an enlightening article by Fr. Stanley Harakas of Holy Cross seminary. Here's the link: http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8076.asp
Its worth the read and may answer your questions. Note, please how contraception is defined.


78 posted on 10/01/2004 12:48:11 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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