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To: Kolokotronis; Destro; Conservative til I die; Tantumergo; katnip; MarMema; gbcdoj; Vicomte13; ...
I would like to clarify the position of the Orthodox Church on the subject of contraception and address some truths about Church and sex, now and in the past. It is a little lengthy, but I think it is worth it.

First, let me start with the Catholic arguments. The RCC does no longer teach that marital sex should be for procreation purposes only. The act (or the "deed" as they call it) must be "life-giving" and therefore "natural."

Thus, if the act is itself is not natural, but involves mechanical or chemical barriers that prevent or terminate conception, the "deed" is not condoned. However, the "deed" is condoned even if the couple is no longer capable of producing life, as long as the "deed" is "life-giving."action is generative of its kind even though a baby cannot be born from it because of other conditions, as when the woman is sterile or already pregnant.

This is very interesting, because it does not address the man. If his "life-giving" function is impaired, and no life-giving "deed" can be accomplished (i.e. no seed), it would seem that such marriage could not continue in the "deed." So no seed, no deed [regardless of the need?]

The definition of the "deed" also begs the question of the "motive," that is -- under what circumstances is such a deed permissible, i.e. "should husband and wife seriously intend to have a child whenever they have intercourse and should they try to restrict intercourse to those times when the conception of a child is possible?" The position of the RCC seems is clear:

What is the Orthodox position"? The Orthodox Church is less legalistic, and therefore, as the primitive Church, has different theologians whose opinions are somewhat different from others and on which the Church had no universal teaching (i.e. has not been addressed by an Ecumenical Council). Thus we find that the EOC has some general agreements on this issue:

There are those, with whom conservative Catholics would find agreement

Then there are

Surprisingly, if not ironically, both of these have their roots in Church history and teachings of select fathers.

However, most authors

Personally I always wanted to ask our Catholic brethren on what grounds is the use of medications and or artificial devices allowed in the prevention and suppression of "natural" diseases, or extending life beyond the "natural" death, whereas the same are not in the "natural deed" of sexual intercourse, and how is man's inability to produce a "life-giving" act reconciled with Church's view that only "life-giving" act is acceptable when such act is impossible (i.e. damage to the sperm-generating structures if man's reproductive organs)?

Historical perspective of interest. St John Chrysostom taught that

Unfortunately, the Greek orthodox Church in America interprets this to mean that he considered the purpose of marriage "primarily the satisfaction of the sexual drive." [?] If anything, he was advocating chastity through marriage, and then procreation, not satisfaction of the sexual drive.

The EOC considers any conception outside the marriage or within marriage that is not agreed upon by both partners as unacceptable

In medieval Russia, the OC treated sex as necessary evil literally speaking.

St. Augustine said

Augustine and others at that time considered sex a subject of grave danger "in part because they believed that sexual feelings and urges, particularly the reactions of the genital organs, were not fully under the control of the human will," and given that many saw sex as something that resulted as a consequence of man's Fall from God, as a power intrinsically evil.

In general, Gnostics, including Origen who castrated himself, believed that Adam and Eve had no sexual temptations in Paradise and that sex therefore resulted from the "original sin" and that, as such, its essence was sinful. This was not alien even to mainline "orthodox" teachers.

As the time progressed, the Church was becoming stricter with regard to sex and the definition of familia. The Roman family was nothing like ours. The man in the familia was not part of it; familia was his possession, and it included his wife, children, servants, slaves and live stock.

Generally intercourse was forbidden


129 posted on 10/02/2004 9:39:34 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: getoffmylawn; AlbionGirl

ping #128


130 posted on 10/02/2004 9:41:38 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Agrarian; Kolokotronis; katnip
It is important to remember that our Savior did not address these issues in any detail, and was not in His salvific message.

My dear brother Kosta, you have said the most important thing in the end.

If the bulk of us spent more time loving each other, feeding the hungry, and biting our tongues when we would like to speak in anger or hostility, and especially in prayer, think what we could become.

The Orthodox church is not legalistic. She wisely refrains from human manufacture of doctrine whenever possible.

I am reminded of an inappropriate comparison from a movie we watched. A group of gangsters had kidnapped a young girl and were thought to have killed her. Her former bodyguard, an assassin by trade, who had loved the child, decides to go out and kill them all, one by one.

As the assassin is standing in an apartment window preparing to shoot and kill some guilty men driving by, the elderly man in the apartment says "God says we should forgive those who harm us".

And the assassin replies, "Forgiveness is between God and them. My job is to arrange the meeting."

The "job" of the Orthodox church is to hold the meeting.

131 posted on 10/02/2004 10:36:09 PM PDT by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: kosta50

A fascinating post. I wonder if we'll be able to go a week on this forum without someone shrieking that that "Orthodox caved on contraception" regardless of the facts?

Nah, actually, I know that we won't. Ah well.


132 posted on 10/02/2004 10:43:58 PM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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