More like the redheaded stepchild.
Posted on 09/30/2004 4:42:17 PM PDT by Destro
"We're the evil twin."
:) You said it, not me!
The most common Divine Liturgy celebrated is the St. John Chrystostom's version. He shortened the original from four or five hours to one hour and a half in the 4th century, retaining all the seential parts of the original.
I don't know much about St. Tihon's Liturgy but maybe MarMema can elaborate.
By contrast, the Roman Catholic Mass has been changed many times, and from what many are saying about the Vatican II, the latest version is but a pale resemblence of the Tridentine, which is but 500 years old.
"The Catholics are protestant since they protested the Orthodox not accepting the Frankish innovation of the Filioque clause to the Creed."
There is a great deal more to it than that, but in any event, the priest in the article said "Protestant", not "protestant". In either event coming from an Orthodox priest and directed toward Catholics, it is an unwarranted slap and bespeaks a mind clouded by baggage from a former faith.
"Can you provide proof that this Council was approved by the Pope? Even in the Orthodox model the Council has to be approved by all five patriarchs before it becomes ecumenical."
This is also a question in the Orthodox Churches. For this reason we speak of the One Church, with us as its continuation, as "The Church of the 7 Councils". An argument can be made, and indeed has been made, that the 8th Council was a very large and important Local Council. Personally, I don't know that I buy that, but it is an open question.
"It is a statement of opinion that one can argue (and it is juicy to argue) but not a basis for the hurtful words Kolokotronis used against the good father who used them in the article."
The priest's remarks were both ridiculous and ignorant, they are also not in accord with what his own hierarchs. Recently, the SCOBA bishops in consultation with a committee of the Catholics bishops issued a statement of the filique issue. In part it says, in a final section,that the Consultation makes eight recommendations to the members and bishops of the two churches. It recommends that they "enter into a new and earnest dialogue concerning the origin and person of the Holy Spirit." It also proposes that in the future both Catholics and Orthodox "refrain from labeling as heretical the traditions of the other side" on this subject, and that the theologians of both traditions make a clearer distinction between the divinity of the Spirit, and the manner of the Spirit’s origin, "which still awaits full and final ecumenical resolution." The text also urges theologians to distinguish, as far as possible, the theological issues concerning the origin of the Holy Spirit from ecclesiological issues, and suggests that attention be paid in the future to the status of councils of both our churches that took place after the seven ecumenical councils of the first millennium. And finally, in view of the fact that the Vatican has affirmed the "normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381" in its original Greek version, the Consultation recommends that the Catholic Church use the same text (without the Filioque) "in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use," and declare that the anathema pronounced by the Second Council of Lyons against those who deny that the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son is no longer applicable.
This priest made his remarks after his own hierarch, a member of the SCOBA, endorsed this statement. To call Catholics "Protastants" is to call the heretics. That is innappropriate and the man should be disciplined. He is disobedient and if he preaches this garbage, especially to catechumens or new converts, he will be leading his parish astray.
I disagree with gbcdoj on his assertion that all five patriarchs had to agree for the councils to be valid. Usually the Pope would sin for the Church, but the Emperor was the law behind it. Councils sometimes passed canons that were not to pope's liking, and some refused to sign them. The Councils were passed regardless and usually another pope would, under sometimes very obvious pressure and threats, agree to with the Emperor and the Council and sign it.
Kolokotrinis, the non-Orthodox are not invited to take the Eucharist. If the priest doesn't recognize someone he will specifically ask if that person is Orthodox before giving the Eucharist.
I have also said in one of my previous posts that to the orthodox, the Catholics were the first Protestants. It's a relational not judgmental statement.
Vicomte, we are a hairline apart but that hairline is a narrow, yet deep, deep canyon.
I have seen other Orthodox assert that all the patriarchs needed to agree - I guess this isn't really a settled issue in the Orthodox Church. Why did the previous seven Councils seek confirmation from the Pope if it wasn't necessary? In the letter of the Council of Chalcedon to St. Leo I it is stated that the "force of all" rests upon his confirmation of the council.
Are you saying that it was the Emperor's consent that made a council Ecumenical?
That is this article's error in mis-presenting the fact that way - not the Father's. Clearly the author is befuddled - Americans will be more confused as Orthodoxy moves on and converts more and more.
I say it as well and with a capital P and agree 100% with it's use.
apples and oranges - the Pope needs to be at an ecumenical council just like the Pope of Alexandria, etc needs to be, but the Roman Pope does not have a veto vote to council decisions. The Council decisions are binding to the attending Pope even if he has reservations about them.
kosta: "Vicomte, we are a hairline apart but that hairline is a narrow, yet deep, deep canyon."
Yes, that is true.
And because a hairline is so narrow, however deep, the age is past when we should toss rocks at each other across it.
(The age never should have arisen in the first place...but "Woe unto the world because of offenses, for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe unto the man by whom the offense cometh.")
If we should suppose that the Great Schism was just such an offense that, in the Providence of God, must needs come, and that the division it has left between us is a deep and abiding scar, the wound inflicted by the past on us is real. But we, alive in the hear and now, need not commit our own offenses of making the wounds worse. Catholics are not Protestants. We are a sacramental church based on ancient Tradition, in the Apostolic Succession going all the way back to Jesus, just like the Orthodox. Our differences are real, but they are not the difference between Protestants and Catholics. Those differences are real, but they are of a different order. It is possible to imagine a reconciliation between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, with each coming into full communion with the other without the death of either Church. It is not possible to imagine, say, the Southern Baptist Convention coming into full communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople, without a complete change in the very nature of Southern Baptism itself.
The councils were Ecumenical because they involved the bishops from the Greek and Latin side, and because the Pope's legates were present.
Good point. Again, I say that referirng to "Protestants" is figurative and symbolic (i.e. protesting), and not realistic. We need not throw stones at each other. We need not call each other heretic, or by any other label. I agree fully.
Abortion is the murder of the unborn, that's how. I would have thought you could figure that one out for yourself. I stand corrected.
Actually, it has more to do with the fact that contraceptive methods that were not abortiofacient came into common use.
Also, many Roman Catholics labor under the misconception that the Orthodox Church approves of the use of contraceptives for any reason whatever, this is patently untrue. Permission to use contraception can be given but it still viewed as a moral failing.
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