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To: Buggman; Lester Moore
Do you think God knew who would receive Christ prior to creating the universe, before space/time, before the first molecule?

Assuming you answer the former question "yes"...

Why do you think God went ahead and created those whom He (fore)knew would not receive Christ anyway?

37 posted on 09/30/2004 8:49:39 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: Alex Murphy; Lester Moore
Yes I do believe that God knew us "before" creating space/time (insofar as "before" has meaning in that context).

In answer to the second question: Had God only created those that would come to Him, that in and of itself would belie free will, since only those "preprogrammed" to accept Him would exist.

An illustration may help: Say that you set up a simulation program to play with the free will of AI. You create x number of entities within the program and give them differing gifts which when combined with their own choices, grow into rudimentary personalities. Now lets say that you ran the program forward in time to see which AIs would travel to the right side of the screen and which to the left. Now lets say that you reversed the clock and simply deleted all of the AIs who would go to the left.

Assuming that the AIs that originally turned to the right still did in the absence of those who went to the left (and that's problematic, since none of us make our decisions in a vacuum), would those that went to the right still have a real choice?

Free will is only meaningful if some can choose differently than others! And love, by it's very nature, cannot exist unless there be free will to choose not to love! Don't believe me? Go get one of those dolls that says, "I love you," when you pull on the string and tell me how satisfying that is compared to the genuine love of your family and friends.

The real question is not why a God who gave us free will and respects it would allow those who exercise that free will to rebel to exist in the first place. He does so because He loves them enough to let them decide whether to submit to His wooing. The real question is why the God of John Calvin and Augustine (both of whom, it should be pointed out, advocated using the State to force people to convert) is such a puppet-master that He would create beings and force them to rebel against Him, and such a sadist that he takes those helpless, morally-unresponsble beings and damns them to hell! As Dave Hunt asks in his book of the same title: What Love Is This?

38 posted on 09/30/2004 9:52:22 PM PDT by Buggman (Your failure to be informed does not make me a kook.)
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