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To: Kolokotronis
I just can't resist this: Matt: 18:18, 19:28, Eph: 2:20 and LK: 22:24-27. :)

Matt: 18:18 - Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Basis for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Matt: 19:28 - Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
[28] This saying, directed to the Twelve, is from Q; see Luke 22:29-30. The new age: the Greek word here translated "new age" occurs in the New Testament only here and in Titus 3:5. Literally, it means "rebirth" or "regeneration," and is used in Titus of spiritual rebirth through baptism. Here it means the "rebirth" effected by the coming of the kingdom. Since that coming has various stages (see the notes on Matthew 3:2; 4:17), the new age could be taken as referring to the time after the resurrection when the Twelve will govern the true Israel, i.e., the church of Jesus. (For "judge" in the sense of "govern," cf Judges 12:8, 9, 11; 15:20; 16:31; Psalm 2:10). But since it is connected here with the time when the Son of Man will be seated on his throne of glory, language that Matthew uses in Matthew 25:31 for the time of final judgment, it is more likely that what the Twelve are promised is that they will be joined with Jesus then in judging the people of Israel. - New American Bible

Eph: 2:20 - built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.
Capstone: the Greek can also mean cornerstone or keystone. New American Bible

Lk: 22:24-27 - Then an argument broke out among them about which of them should be regarded as the greatest.
25 9 He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in authority over them are addressed as 'Benefactors';
26 but among you it shall not be so. Rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest, and the leader as the servant.
27 For who is greater: the one seated at table or the one who serves? Is it not the one seated at table? I am among you as the one who serves.

* * * * *

Pulling pieces of scripture can go both ways. If you continue with Luke 22, you will find the primacy of Peter in 28-32:

28 It is you who have stood by me in my trials;
29 and I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father has conferred one on me,
30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 10 11 "Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat,
32 but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers."

Jesus assures the apostles that they all have authority, but then he singles out Peter, conferring upon him a special pastoral authority over the other disciples which he is to exercise by strengthening their faith (22:31–32).

In John 21:15–17, with only the other disciples present (cf. John 21:2), Jesus asks Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?"—in other words, is Peter more devoted to him than the other disciples? When Peter responds that he is, Jesus instructs him: "Feed my lambs" (22:15). Thus we see Jesus describing the other disciples, the only other people who are present, the ones whom Jesus refers to as "these," as part of the lambs that he instructs Peter to feed, giving him the role of pastor (shepherd) over them. Again, a reference to Peter having more than merely a primacy of honor with respect to the other apostles, but a primacy of pastoral discipline as well.

Ultimately, what unites us is far greater than what separates us. I do believe that one day the Catholics and Orthodox, will be reunited :-).

Have a blessed day!

68 posted on 09/26/2004 11:10:31 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: NYer

bttt


69 posted on 09/26/2004 11:16:03 AM PDT by prognostigaator
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To: NYer
Have a blessed day!

And you also!

72 posted on 09/26/2004 8:05:11 PM PDT by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: NYer; NJ Neocon; Vicomte13; Tantumergo; MarMema; AlbionGirl; monkfan; FormerLib
Vicomte, I ask that you forgive my anger. I was wrong to lash out at you. I gave in to my disappointment with your turnaround. I trust that yours was a moment of weakness too and not what you really believe.

Pulling pieces of scripture can go both ways.

NYer, you are aware of John 16:23, and Mark 8:33 where Jesus says to Peter

because Peter started to rebuke Jesus. So, verse by verse, one can really stretch things. Obviously, this one verse is a distortion, as all out-of-context verses are. Likewise, Lk 22:31-32 that you reference, does not give Peter "authority" to judge and rule over other Apostles, but it directs him to straighten their faith -- once Peter himself turned around from his own failings. How does one strengthen one's faith? Certainly not by force or by a judgment! He does give Peter a special role, but that role is not that of a judge or a ruler.

This is actually where our divergence begins! Where we see Peter as a primate of honor, Catholics see him as having authority above and beyond that of other Apostles. The behavior of the Apostles after the Pentecost makes it clear that none of them considered Peter his primate in authority in the juridical sense. Deference due to respect is not the same as submission.

The popes always enjoyed authority over clergy in the West (because a priest has no power without a bishop). The pope never ruled the Church in the East in that sense (i.e. did not ordain or administer clergy there), always deferring to the patriarchs to govern their churches in their domain. But at the same time, the Pope was to enjoy the primacy of honor among all patriarchs and his prestige carried the greatest weight.

Thus, the expectation of Patriarch Alexy II for the Pope to respect Russian Orthodox domain is perfectly historically and ecclesiastically valid, just as it is impossible for the Russian Patriarch to receive the Pope as his senior in honor until the Church of the East and West normalized its broken relationship.

73 posted on 09/26/2004 8:52:25 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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