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To: NYer
MarMema pinged me, so I thought I'd weigh in with a few helpful comments.

The use of the vernacular was the normative practice of the Orthodox Church from the beginning: hence the services were done in Latin in the West, Greek in most of the East, Syriac in regions of the East where Greek was not generally know, Coptic in Egypt, Georgian in Georgia, Armenian in Armenia and so forth. When the Nestorians and Monophysite separated most of the Syriac, Coptic and Armenian speakers left the Church.

SS. Cyril and Methodius translated the services and Scriptures into a constructed slavic language which could be understood by all the Slavs whom the Evangelized (who spoke slightly different dialects).

The freezing of the Russian liturgy in Church Slavonic represents a phenomenon similar to that found in Greek, where the Liturgy is still in koine rather than demotike, though changes in Russian have made it less intelligible. The Russian missionaries always translated the services and Scriptures into the languages of the Siberian, then Alaskan peoples. St. Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow, Confessor of the Bolshevik Yoke, when he was the Archbishop of Alaska and All-North-America commissioned a translation of the services into English (Hapgood's Service Book) which subsequently became the inspiration, if not basis, for most of the subsequent translations into Early Modern English. (As for example Bishop BASIL Essy's Liturgicon, or the Psalter and Great Horologion translated by the monks of Holy Transfiguration Monastery). The preference fore Early Modern English as opposed to modern vernacular English, follows the wisdom of St. Nicholas of Japan, who in the late 19th century translated the services and Scriptures into the same style of archaic, high-liturgical Japanese used in Buddhist and Shinto liturgies.

The Greek experience under the Turkokratia in which culture and Church became inextricably joined in the popular mind, leaving the immigrant churches in North America trying to cling to Greek which was no longer the language of their faithful is actually an aberation.

The Antiochian Archdiocese and the OCA (formerly the Metropolia) have been using English in North America for decades. The Greeks are running behind on this for the reason just noted.

On another matter: I am not throughly versed on all of the various Western conceptions of salvation, but my last priest, who is now the Dean of St. Herman's Seminary, Kodiak, AK, who converted from Anglicanism and was well-versed in both Western and Eastern theologies was of the opinion that the only Western idea which really resembled theosis was Charles Wesley's understanding of sanctification. Of course, maybe this isn't surprising: there is good evidence that Wesley read a great deal of the Greek Fathers, especially Chrysostom.

220 posted on 09/29/2004 6:52:07 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was)
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To: The_Reader_David; NYer
"The Greek experience under the Turkokratia in which culture and Church became inextricably joined in the popular mind, leaving the immigrant churches in North America trying to cling to Greek which was no longer the language of their faithful is actually an aberation."

A fair comment about the past. Not so fair about now. The Antiochian Orthodox experience here has been interesting. I suspect it is the most convert filled Orthodox Church in America. In fact, the Antiochian Archdiocese here was rescued after a fashion by the reception of a large group of evangelical protestants who in some instances have opined that Greek Liturgies in America are acts of blasphemy (an attitude which has not made them real popular with the GOA). On the other hand, prior to speaking with Metropolitan Philip, they had requested reception into the GOA and the Archbishop refused, being concerned about some of their attitudes which evinced, to his mind, a protestant mindset, an unseemly desire for titles indicating ordination to some level of the priesthood and a protestant style anti-Catholicism, so maybe some are still mad. In any event, the use of English in the liturgy of the Antiochian Church really got going after they came in. The OCA was granted autocephaly by Moscow many years ago. Some parishes are almost 100% Russian with Slavonic liturgies, others are 100% convert with English liturgies. The OCA is quite small, but runs a great seminary. Our native Orthodox, the Inuit, are almost all OCA and as I have mentioned elsewhere, their liturgy is in Inuit.
223 posted on 09/29/2004 7:43:52 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: The_Reader_David; MarMema; Kolokotronis; Tantumergo; katnip; monkfan; Vicomte13
SS. Cyril and Methodius translated the services and Scriptures into a constructed Slavic language which could be understood by all the Slavs whom the Evangelized (who spoke slightly different dialects)

At the time SS Cyril and Methodius created Church Slavonic (liturgical Slavic language which is in perfect agreement with the koine Greek, unlike Latin), the Slavs spoke the same languge -- old Slavonic. The brothers used the language of the Slavs living in or near what is presently Southern Serbia and FYR Macedonia, and intended it for the Moravian (Czech Republic) converts -- which is leaps and bounds away from the Balkans. The Slavic language did not begin to separate into regional dialects until about tow centuries later.

Of all the Slavic languages in the Balkans, Serbian is the only one that has retained all seven cases (as opposed to Greek and Macedonian both of which have only four), and even Russian (non-Balkan Slavic language) which has six. The significance of this number is in tracing the roots of the Church Slavonic, whose infinitive form (i.e. spasiti) and the number of cases (seven), and palatalizations (i.e. sveshtenstvo vs. sveshchenstvo) corresponds perfectly with modern Serbian.

The freezing of the Russian liturgy in Church Slavonic represents a phenomenon similar to that found in Greek

The Church Slavonic is the language of the Orthodox Liturgy of Orthodox Slavs -- it is not just Russian. The three so-called "reductions" of the Church Slavonic (Serbian, Bulgarian and Russian) never ceased to be one and the same language, but by a set of circumstances in the mid 18th century the Serbian orthodox Church adopted the Russian reduction of church Slavonic as its liturgical language. I can go to Bulgarian, Russian, Ukrainians or Serbian orthodox Church and understand each and every word, because it's in Church Slavonic.

That being said, it is also true that many Slavic Orthodox worship in modern vernacular and that it is perfectly legitimate. The problem is with presentation: the melodic chants and opera-like singing were composed with Church Slavonic intonations and vocabulary which is slightly off-note with modern vernacular. Still, very close agreement can be achieved.

225 posted on 09/29/2004 8:22:39 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: The_Reader_David; MarMema; Kolokotronis; Tantumergo; katnip; monkfan; Vicomte13
SS. Cyril and Methodius translated the services and Scriptures into a constructed Slavic language which could be understood by all the Slavs whom the Evangelized (who spoke slightly different dialects)

At the time SS Cyril and Methodius created Church Slavonic (liturgical Slavic language which is in perfect agreement with the koine Greek, unlike Latin), the Slavs spoke the same languge -- old Slavonic. The brothers used the language of the Slavs living in or near what is presently Southern Serbia and FYR Macedonia, and intended it for the Moravian (Czech Republic) converts -- which is leaps and bounds away from the Balkans. The Slavic language did not begin to separate into regional dialects until about tow centuries later.

Of all the Slavic languages in the Balkans, Serbian is the only one that has retained all seven cases (as opposed to Greek and Macedonian both of which have only four), and even Russian (non-Balkan Slavic language) which has six. The significance of this number is in tracing the roots of the Church Slavonic, whose infinitive form (i.e. spasiti) and the number of cases (seven), and palatalizations (i.e. sveshtenstvo vs. sveshchenstvo) corresponds perfectly with modern Serbian.

The freezing of the Russian liturgy in Church Slavonic represents a phenomenon similar to that found in Greek

The Church Slavonic is the language of the Orthodox Liturgy of Orthodox Slavs -- it is not just Russian. The three so-called "reductions" of the Church Slavonic (Serbian, Bulgarian and Russian) never ceased to be one and the same language, but by a set of circumstances in the mid 18th century the Serbian orthodox Church adopted the Russian reduction of church Slavonic as its liturgical language. I can go to Bulgarian, Russian, Ukrainians or Serbian orthodox Church and understand each and every word, because it's in Church Slavonic.

That being said, it is also true that many Slavic Orthodox worship in modern vernacular and that it is perfectly legitimate. The problem is with presentation: the melodic chants and opera-like singing were composed with Church Slavonic intonations and vocabulary which is slightly off-note with modern vernacular. Still, very close agreement can be achieved.

226 posted on 09/29/2004 8:24:07 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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