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To: NYer

I am a terrible person to ask about the contents of the article, because I have absolutely no formal religious training at all. So many of the words are terribly big and mysterious, that they make my mind hurt.

The author, to an even greater extent than the Catechism, really drills down into very complex theological concepts. I am sure they are important to those educated in those things. My view is much more the 85,000 foot view, so to speak, because I really don't understand about half of what I just read on your request.

Here is what I took out of it: the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church are very, very theologically sophisticated, and seem to be very Orthodox. They don't admit to papal infallibility, and they administer the sacraments very differently in many cases. Their concept of what it is that they are doing is quite different from the concept in the Latin Rite.
But we are in full communion anyway, because Rome is not the Rome of 1400, and does not seek to "resolve the issue" of papal infallibility by bringing it to a head and issuing commands. Rather, if the Pope is infallible on matters of faith and doctrine, and any of these differences in Eastern practice are matters of faith and doctrine, the Pope has CONFIRMED their validity, and thereby bound his successors to not disturb the differences. If the differences are merely disciplinary matters, the Pope has nevertheless set such a high precedential standards that the Eastern Rites are EQUALLY VALID, that in this modern day, no Supreme Pontiff is ever going to disturb this settlement.
In other words, the West says that the Pope is infallible, the East says that it does not agree that the Pope is infallible, and the subject never comes up again, because no issue ever presents itself in a test case.

This sort of thing comes up in law all the time. Laws are on the books that make it an ordinance violation to talk in a New York City elevator. That law has been there since 1918 or so. So, is that still really a law? Well, in theory, yes, because it was never repealed. And presumably if someone became a nuisance by yelling obscenities or protesting on an elevator, that law is out there as sort of a "gotcha" (although it probably wouldn't be used even then, since "disturbing the peace" will do). But then the law would be tested, and a higher court might refuse to apply it as invalid, either through desuetude or, more likely, because it violates some constitutional principle or other. No cop or prosecutor is likely to ever use that law as a basis of prosecution, because the outcome would be uncertain, and it would be a waste of resources. Likewise, I expect, any temptation to ever again attempt to use papal infallibility on any issue that has already been vetted and discussed over the years. Precisely because the papacy and Church Councils have NOT spoken infallibly before, the presumption would be strongly against doing so now. Some NEW thing could come up, like the deliberate creation of human clones, for example, that the Pope might pronounce to be infallibly a violation for all time of the moral law of God, but a Church Council of East and West, with the Orthodox Present, would certainly come to the identical conclusion, so it would merely be a matter of bad form for the Pope to do it that way...and therefore, he wouldn't.

The only issue that divides East and West we've seriously discussed on this board is "filioque", and try as I might to really figure out what the man was saying in paragraph after paragraph on the subject, I could not understand one in every ten words, and don't know where the Eastern Rite stands based on this. I will hazard a guess: he is being obscure for diplomatic reasons. Probably, wrapped in all of those terribly long Greek words, there is the meaning that the East doesn't say "filioque" and thinks like the Orthodox, but the East doesn't express this in a way that provokes a confrontation with the West. In other words, Latin and Byzantine live and let live in their slightly different theological outlooks, and share communion, and do not consider their different outlooks to mean they aren't in full communion.

The great thing about the article is that it tells ME that the full reunion with Orthodoxy is possible. If Orthodoxy is as much like the Byzantine Rite as I suspect, from reading this, that it is, then reunification of the Church so that we can share communion truly is a diplomatic matter.

Thank you for posting the article. It gives me great hope.
And it makes me retract my comment about sending missionaries East. We mustn't do that. We do need Latin Rite priests in Russia to serve the Roman Catholics, until we can share communion, but not to compete for proselytes with the native Patriarchate. That would be divisive and ultimately stupid. I was wrong.


156 posted on 09/28/2004 4:57:33 PM PDT by Vicomte13
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To: Vicomte13; Kolokotronis; kosta50; Tantumergo; sandyeggo
Thank you, so much, for taking the time to read through this lengthy article!

Like you, I have no 'formal' religious training; I have 12 years of catholic school education, followed by full exposure to the 'real world'. As far as the words making your 'mind' hurt, these words are spoken to the heart, not the mind.

Here is what I took out of it: the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church are very, very theologically sophisticated, and seem to be very Orthodox. They don't admit to papal infallibility, and they administer the sacraments very differently in many cases.

Ahhhh .. now we are making progress! "the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church are very, very theologically sophisticated"

This is precisely what Kolokotronis and Kosta50 have attempted to emphasize, though the word 'sophisticated' is not what I believe they had in mind (please correct me if I am wrong). It is indeed a very different 'mindset'. The Western mind probes and analyzes each word within the context with which it is used. The Eastern Rites appeal to the soul, whereas the Western Rites appeal to rationale. They must 'prove' everything through inquiry; whereas the Eastern Rites view certain aspects of Christ's message as a mystery that must be accepted on faith alone.

Rather, if the Pope is infallible on matters of faith and doctrine, and any of these differences in Eastern practice are matters of faith and doctrine, the Pope has CONFIRMED their validity, and thereby bound his successors to not disturb the differences.

Precisely! Like the CEO of a company, or the Governor of a state, or the President of a nation, there must be one person who shepherds and that function was entrusted by Christ to St. Peter. He is the Vicar of Christ.

The only issue that divides East and West we've seriously discussed on this board is "filioque", and try as I might to really figure out what the man was saying in paragraph after paragraph on the subject, I could not understand one in every ten words, and don't know where the Eastern Rite stands based on this.

As a Roman Catholic attending a Maronite (Eastern) Catholic Rite, I can definitely address that question. The very same creed that is professed each week in the Latin (Novus Ordo) Mass, is the same one that we Maronites profess. There is FULL communion.

And it makes me retract my comment about sending missionaries East. We mustn't do that.

Thank you! This missionary work has already taken place, and here is one of the results (from the History of the Maronite Caholic Church).

" In 1578 Papal legates John Baptist Eliano, S.J. and Thomas Raggio, S.J. were sent to the Maronites. They brought with them a Papal Bull addressed to the Maronite Patriarch. After acknowledging the faith of the Maronites, Pope Gregory XIII requests that the Maronites should follow the Roman tradition in not adding references to Christ in theTrisagion, in having only Bishops administer the sacrament of Confirmation, and in not giving the Eucharist to children under the age of reason. The Holy Father closes by saying that he is going to send Arabic translations of the decrees and canons of the Council of Trent, and a catechism for use of pastors. We might note that the changes advocated by the Holy Father were of longstanding liturgical practice in the Maronite tradition.

After meeting with the Maronite Patriarch, the Papal legates sought to examine the liturgical, canonical and theological books used by the Maronites. Father Eliano proceeded to censor and burn the books he considered contained errors. He has been accused by the Maronites of destroying many precious manuscripts important for the history of the nation. In fact, Patriarch Stephen Douaihi, noting that Arabic words often have many meanings difficult to understand, claims that Eliano was not a scholar in Arabic. Douaihi further observes that Eliano did not distinguish books accepted by the Maronites as contrasted to those of the Roman rite.

The Maronite position regarding the first visit of Papal legates Eliano and Raggio can be summarized best by citing the letter written by Patriarch Michael Ruzzi to Cardinal Caraffa, the Cardinal-Protector of the Maronites, dated August 25, 1678: "Since, my brother, there may be someone who will write to you that there are some words found in our books opposed to the holy Church, we accept only what the holy Church accepts, and whatever errors are found in some copies would have crept in and been inserted in them from the books of nations which are near us and from a long time ago. My brother, remove all suspicion concerning our rectitude; we were founded from antiquity in the faith of the Holy Apostolic Roman Church which we have always embraced; and we do not speak to you merely with our lips, but with our lips and hearts, may God be our witness."

Essentially, the Maronites have retained their fidelity to the Magisterium and the Holy See, from the very beginning, even at the risk of losing some Anaphoras written by the apostles who walked with Christ.

Please forgive me for interjecting this thought. I am a middle aged woman, raised as a Roman Catolic from birth. It NEVER occured to me to question, much less explore any other aspect of Holy Mother church until I arrived in this forum. When the situation in my parish breached abuse, I knew in my heart and soul that I had to find a new home in which to worship my beloved Savior. I sent a fervent prayer to Him and asked that He lead me to a holy man, a valid liturgy and a welcoming community. The response was swift. In compiling a list of Catholic Churches within a certain radius of my home, at the suggestion of a fellow freeper, I included two Eastern Catholic Rite Churches.

Week three brought me to the Maronite Catholic Church. There, I lost my heart and soul to a liturgy which is Christ centered. The chant that connects the celebrant to the congregation captivated me. Throughout the liturgy, incense rose heavenward as the priest incensed the Book of the Gospels, the altar, the offerings and the congregation.

My heart stood still when the priest said the words of consecration in the language and with the words of our Lord at the Last Supper. When I presented myself for communion, the priest (and ONLY the priest) placed the consecrated host on my tongue (no communion in the hands) with the words: "Receive the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ, for the remission of sin and eternal salvation".

As he placed the consecrated host on my tongue, my soul literally jumped within me. This was an experience unlike anything else I have ever known. It was like a starving person receiving food. My natural inclination was to disregard it but one week later, I chose to return to the same church. As had happened the previous week, on presenting myself for communion, my soul soared so much that I had to grab onto the edge of the first pew.

I am no religious fanatic. This reaction defies description or explanation, other than to affirm the validity of the transformed host. How else to explain it? It never occured again; there was no need for that as I understood God's message to me and joined the parish. This has proven to be such a tremendous blessing in my life and opened up a world to the Eastern philosophy, that has only grown my devotion to our Lord and broadened my understanding of Catholic faith.

If you have not yet experienced an Eastern Catholic liturgy, I would strongly urge you to find a church in your communty and attend their Divine Liturgy 3 times. Yes, it takes 3 visits to begin to understand the rich contribution from our Eastern members.

Until you have experienced the Eastern contributions to the Catholic faith, you cannot begin to fully appreciate the richness that they contribute to the faith.

God bless you on your journey!

160 posted on 09/28/2004 6:51:36 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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