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To: irishtenor

***but why is Paul's epistle superior in authority to James, the brother of Jesus and the head of the Church at Jerusalem?***
But I thought you guys didn't believe that Jesus had any brothers, that they were just cousins, because Mary had to stay pure.

First you didn't answer my question: Why do you give Paul's epistle given superior authority to James'? They contradict. Do you just choose the one whose theology you like better?

Second, James was probably Jesus' step-brother.

Third, even if he was Jesus' full brother, by the same mother, Mary, that would merely confirm your literalist Scriptural argument. You would win on that point, but then you would have to turn and read, and apply "Faith without works is dead." That is not "Grace alone does it."
That is the antithesis of "Grace alone does it."

If we're going to be literalists here, then fine, do let's be literalists. The Bible says, in English, Jesus had brothers and sisters. For the sake of argument, I'll go ahead and accept a "Plain meaning rule" in English: Jesus had brothers and sisters (for the sake of argument), they were not step-brothers and step-sisters (for the sake of argument), and therefore (for the sake of argument) you win! Mary wasn't perpetually virgin (for the sake of argument).

Now let's move to other things also literally in Scripture:

"Faith without works is dead" - directly refutes "grace alone".

Prayers and alms to atone for the sins of the dead (2 Maccabees).

Laying on of hands to impart the holy spirit.

No remarriage after divorce.

Do you dispute that any of these things are not directly, explicitly, literally in Scripture?


346 posted on 09/24/2004 6:51:50 AM PDT by Vicomte13
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To: Vicomte13

***"Faith without works is dead" - directly refutes "grace alone". ***

Let's tackle this one. What is being said is that if you claim to have faith, it will be self evident by the works you do. In other words, it is the grace of God which saves you, and grace alone, but the faith you have in that salvation is evidenced by the good works that you do. If you claim to have faith in God, yet you denigrate others, cheat others, lie about others, gossip, etc. I would question whether you actually have faith at all. However, if you demonstrate the gifts of the Holy Spirit in your life, that backs up your claim of faith. It's simple, really.

***Second, James was probably Jesus' step-brother. ***

There is no Biblical evidence to make this claim. Only speculation.

***Third, even if he was Jesus' full brother, by the same mother, Mary, that would merely confirm your literalist Scriptural argument. You would win on that point, but then you would have to turn and read, and apply "Faith without works is dead." That is not "Grace alone does it."
That is the antithesis of "Grace alone does it." ***

I'm not sure where you are heading with this. It seems to be two different points.


***No remarriage after divorce. ***

The Bible does say that if you do not have a biblical divorce and you remarry, you have committed adultery. I have never said otherwise.

***Prayers and alms to atone for the sins of the dead (2 Maccabees). ***

I do believe that this is one of the verses that convinced the Protestants that this book doesn't belong in the Bible. Now, you and I can argue about this and it won't get us anywhere, because I believe in one Bible, you believe in another. I just have to go with what I know about this, as you do.

***Laying on of hands to impart the holy spirit. ***

I do not believe that just the action of laying on of hands gives you the ability to impart the Holy Spirit. That would mean that you would be in control of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is one member of the Godhead, and cannot be controled by anyone. If the Holy Spirit is preparing someone to recieve him, it could be that he allows someone to do the laying on of hands as this way to do it. But the Holy Spirit come upon people all sorts of ways, in His own way, in His own time, not because someone layed hands.

I think this should cover it :>)


349 posted on 09/24/2004 3:53:26 PM PDT by irishtenor (If stupidity were painful, all the democrats would be in the hospital...)
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