Posted on 08/30/2004 4:13:33 PM PDT by pro Athanasius
Lourdes (France), August 20: In an unexpected twist of globalisation, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and other pilgrims regularly worship at famous Roman Catholic shrines to the Virgin Mary such as Lourdes in France and Fatima in Portugal.
They drink the holy water, light votive candles and pray fervently to the Madonna for help with life's hardships. Many venerate her like one of their own goddesses, a view that would be a heresy if a Catholic theologian tried to defend it.
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They drink the holy water, light votive candles and pray fervently to the Madonna for help with life's hardships. Many venerate her like one of their own goddesses, a view that would be a heresy if a Catholic theologian tried to defend it.
Rather than turned away, the newcomers are free to join the crowds from Ireland, Italy, Spain, and other traditionally Catholic countries who flock to Europe's most popular shrines.
In Fatima, the warm welcome they have received has caused an uproar among traditionalist Catholics.
No one can say how many non-Catholics worship at shrines where the Virgin is said to have appeared, but they have become a familiar minority there over the past five to 10 years.
"There are lots of them," Bishop Jacques Perrier of Lourdes told Reuters during Pope John Paul's visit to the southwestern French "miracle shrine" on August 14-15.
"Their numbers may be small as a percentage of the 6 million pilgrims here each year, but they're big in absolute terms."
The sight of some south Asian women in splendid saris mingling with the European pilgrims is the first hint that reverence for Mary has crossed religious borders.
Standing near the grotto where she was said to have appeared in 1858, two women wearing the Hindu red dot or "bindi" on their foreheads said they prayed daily to the Madonna.
"I come here for peace of mind and heart," said Buvaneswary Palani, a Hindu from southeastern India who now lives in southern France.
"Gods are the same everywhere," explained her mother Darmavady. "She is like our mother goddess Mariamman."
MARY, MARIAMMAN, MARYAM
Catholics revere Mary and believe she can intervene with Jesus to help them, but they do not consider her divine.
Hindu or Buddhist pilgrims could be forgiven for thinking she is, though, when they see the faithful kneeling in silent prayer before her statue or admire the huge mosaic of her that looms over the altar at the Lourdes basilica.
The Virgin also resembles goddesses they venerated back home before moving to Europe.
Tamils in southeastern India and northern Sri Lanka worship a goddess Mariamman who protects villages and wards off disease.
Among the Buddhists of China, Vietnam and other Asian states, the "compassionate Saviouress" Kwan Yin offers the maternal love that Catholics find in Mary.
Although Islam teaches there is no god but Allah, folk traditions in some Muslim societies have smuggled in a devotion for saints much like that seen in other religions.
The Koran contains a whole chapter on Mary, far more than the Gospels have on her. In it, Maryam (her Arabic name) is a virgin and Jesus a great prophet but neither is divine.
With its mass pilgrimages, devotion to a mother figure and belief in water with miracle healing powers, Lourdes combines elements familiar to followers of several other faiths.
"In a globalised age, it's normal that Lourdes attracts them," said Patrick Theillier, a physician who heads the Medical Bureau which examines every claim of miracle healing at Lourdes. The bureau has certified only 66 healings as genuine miracles.
FATIMA UNDER FIRE
Perrier saw no theological problem with pilgrims of other faiths worshipping at a shrine central to Roman Catholicism.
"There are no religious services at the grotto," the bishop explained. "They have great respect for Mary. They come to drink the water and touch the rocks. But they don't attend mass here. That would have no meaning for them."
But the line between hospitality to outsiders and blurring of religious borders is close, as Portugal's Fatima shrine to the Virgin has learned.
Traditionalist Catholics are up in arms against the shrine's directors for allegedly being so open to Hindu pilgrims that they let them perform religious rites there.
"They have sinned against God and given scandal to the faithful," thundered the U.S. monthly Catholic Family News. "They allowed Mary to be worshipped as God by pagan apostates."
Fatima's director, Father Luciano Guerro, issued a statement in late June denying that a Hindu pilgrim group led by its own priest had somehow defiled the shrine during a visit in May.
"The priest sang a prayer which lasted a few minutes," he said. "No gesture was made, no rite was performed, on or off the altar." Guerro also denied charges that a new church now being built there would be open to rites from all faiths.
VATICAN CONCERN
The blurring of religious borders that globalisation has brought to Marian shrines has also touched the higher levels of Catholic theology, causing deep concern at the Vatican.
Father Jacques Dupuis, an 80-year-old Belgian Jesuit who spent 20 years in India, has broken new ground in recent years by arguing that God works through many faiths to save all believers.
This contradicts the Catholic position that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation and even other Christian churches are imperfect paths to that goal.
Challenging that view earned the respected theologian a secretive three-year investigation by the Vatican's stern doctrinal chief, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.
The issue calmed in 2001 when Dupuis, under heavy Vatican pressure, issued a statement saying his writings had contained some doctrinal ambiguities. But he has not changed his view.
"The Holy Spirit is present in the Hindu and Buddhist traditions," he said in a lecture in February. "The diverse paths are conducive to salvation because they have been placed by God Himself."
They are at it again!
The Anti-Christ will validate all religions, bring them all together and will sit atop them all, proclaiming himself to be the Christ returned to earth.
If you have eyes to see what the spirit behind Mary-worship is bring people to, then flee.
Catholics don't worship Mary at least true ones. Do you agree with my statement. Any good Catholic abhors this kind of behavior which Catholic Churchman from the top down have been promoting. The devil is going to go after the one true Church which Christ established- the other sects are just icing on the cake. The attempt is to destroy Christ's One true Church, the Holy Catholic and Apostolic one.
Cool.
/sarcasm
You've been educated numerous times on Catholic doctrine regarding Mary, yet you continue to pretend you can't read by coming back into thread with your anti-Catholic garbage rhetoric postiting the strawman that we "worship" Mary.
You're not only anti-Catholic, you're anti-Christian.
Did Mary not say that "Hence forth all men shall call me ever blessed?"
Are you devoted to your mother? If you are not maybe she wasn't a very good mother.
Who do you think the seed of the Woman is look up Rev. 12:17? Then look up Gen 3:15. The Hail Mary is is the bible and the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus I believe. If I am incorrect one of my other Catholic traditionalist friends will help me out.
One Church springs from the one seed. Their can not be many Churches. God is a God of order not chaos 1 Cor 14:33.
Perhaps you want to fight the Catholics because you are intrigued by them even though you count them as your enemy.
You nailed it. We used to go there fairly regularly, went last in 1997 and saw the deterioration then, too much to stomach.
I smiled when I saw they call the water from the spring Holy Water. Actually we still have some, from a bucket hauled by a priest safely to the traditional chapel whereupon he performed the ceremony to make it truly Holy Water.
But now we would not wish to go back, seeing the progression continue.
***Don't play dumb.***
I know whenever I receive a sucker-punch insult that my friend AAABEST has to be near!
Hey buddy! How are you?
***You've been educated numerous times...continue to pretend you can't read...anti-Catholic garbage rhetoric...You're not only anti-Catholic, you're anti-Christian.***
Nice, I see you've polished up on your persuasive tactics! "How to Win Friends and Influence People" hey!
***postiting the strawman that we "worship" Mary.***
Let me ask you this... how exactly do people "worship" God in the Bible?
BTW - When I said friend, I wasn't kidding.
:)
***Did Mary not say that "Hence forth all men shall call me ever blessed?"***
And she is! Only a fool would deny it. But that's a far cry from kneeling before a statue of her and making vows and petitions - or asking OTHER saints to intercede for you with her!
Would you like me to show you some traditional Catholic prayers to Mary that only a blind person would deny was borderline worship???
***Are you devoted to your mother?***
Yes but Jesus said all other devotions, when compared to our devotion to him, should seem like hate! (Luke 14:26)
*** Their can not be many Churches. ***
How did Paul define the Church?...
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:"
- 1st Cor 1
"...all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ"
To all, in every place, who call upon the name of Jesus. (And not Mary incidentally).
***even though you count them as your enemy.***
I love catholics! Am I your enemy for pointing you to the Scriptures? If so then that's the kind of enemy you need!
I guess we should all that God that He placed them on the path to salvation by breaking the first commandment
Friggen novus ordo idiots
that = thank
Great quotes.
Sometimes I wonder what ever happened to Catholics in this generation, and is it even worth trying to correct the fifteen million different "Catholic" theologies floating around out there. Well here goes anyway, so listen if you will.
MARY ALWAYS LEADS SOULS TO HER SON, JESUS CHRIST. PERIOD!
There is no need to worry about Catholics who venerate Mary being 'led away' from Christ. If you truly venerate Mary then you must also worship her son, just as she did, (and does).
When the Blessed Virgin Mary spoke on those rare occassions in the Bible, she was typically brief and succinct. When speaking to the stewards at the wedding at Cana, Mary gave her short 'gospel' on Jesus when she said: "DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU". (John 2:5) So if you venerate Mary you will 'do whatever He tells you'.
Speaking in Luke 1 (the Magnificat) Mary said of Our Lord: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name".
So if you venerate Mary, the Holy Virgin Mother of God, then you MUST worship, obey, and love her Son, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I'll tell you who fears Catholics praying to and venerating the Virgin Mary...SATAN, that's who. ~~~ end of Catholic theology 101 ~~~
Let me quote from the lips of the so-called "Mary" or Fatima...
"...Do you suffer a great deal? Don’t be discouraged. I will never forsake you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the road that will conduct you to God."
...
"To prevent this, I come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If they listen to my requests, Russia will be converted and there will be peace. If not, she will scatter her errors throughout the world, provoking wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; many nations will be annihilated.
Jesus wishes to make use of you to have me acknowledged and loved. He wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart."
“Here you see hell, where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart... Pray, pray a great deal and make sacrifices for sinners. So many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray and sacrifice for them.”
These appearances are about >>>Mary<<< and her roll in redemtion. Granted, God and Christ are present in the above - but the Father and Son are supposedly telling people They want them to be devoted to Mary. Some are even calling this the Marian age - which, to my mind, goes squarely against scripture when it says,
"God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son" Heb.1 ASV
***When the Blessed Virgin Mary spoke on those rare occassions in the Bible, she was typically brief and succinct. When speaking to the stewards at the wedding at Cana, Mary gave her short 'gospel' on Jesus when she said: "DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU". (John 2:5) So if you venerate Mary you will 'do whatever He tells you'. ***
And granted, what you have said regarding the Mary of the BIBLE is true, and blessed and holy.
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