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To: american colleen; sinkspur; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; ...

First time I ever saw obedience classified as a potential heresy.

For those of you who are of the ultra-trad persuasion, I post this so that you know what kind of crap we have to put up with here in Milwaukee.

Of course, a response has been formulated. Next post.


2 posted on 08/15/2004 11:44:07 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot

Editor,

We are told that ‘pride goeth before the fall,’ and it’s a saying played out large in Biblical history. The saying, even if not quite accurate, is worth remembering, but the Biblical story of pride, and the sin immediately subsequent to pride, makes such remembrance imperative.

The lesson is first taught in Genesis, with Eve’s succumbing to the temptation. Adam and Eve had only to obey one small rule, and all would be well. God wrote the rule for the good of Adam and Eve, because He loved them. But using the lever of pride, Satan was able to persuade both Adam and Eve to disobey. The consequences of disobedience to that one rule were a disaster, not only for Adam and Eve, but for all of mankind.

The lesson, unfortunately, was not learned very well. The Old Testament repeatedly tells us of the pride-disobedience-punishment connection. In some cases, the kings of Israel succumbed, and many times, it was not only the king who was punished, but also the whole people of Israel. It’s hard to figure out God’s intent in making some of the rules—for example, the rules about cleaning one’s kitchen. All we know with certainty is that God made the rules because he loved Israel. We also know that when rules were broken, there were consequences, not only for those who broke the rules, but often for their subjects as well.

It is not by accident that these stories are written; they show us that kings, just like their subjects, have a responsibility to do what is right in the eyes of God-- to follow the rules--not only for their own personal benefit, but for the well-being of those they rule.

There’s another relationship which is made clear in these Biblical stories, and that is the relationship between parents and rulers. Adam and Eve were parents, and their disobedience had consequences for all their children. In like fashion, kings who disobeyed sometimes passed the consequences to all their subjects. In this way, parenthood is ‘rulership’ and ‘rulership’ is parenthood.

In our own lives, if we are parents, we can draw some conclusions. We make rules. We do not expect our children to know precisely why the rules are made, but we do make them for the good of our children, simply because we love them. Sometimes parents enforce rules made by others with legitimate authority—and we do that despite the fact that we do not know why these rules were made—but we enforce them, nonetheless. We also learn from these stories that we owe to our children our own obedience of the rules, for their good as well as for ours. This is one of the facets of the social contract to which we subscribe as members of particular societies, and it is also a general outline of authority.

Parents and kings share a burden in conscience, then: making certain that their children follow the rules, including those rules made by others with legitimate authority. The rules are written for a reason, even if we cannot discern what that reason may be. Moreover, we too must follow ‘the rules,’ for disobedience has consequences not only for ourselves, but also (possibly) for those who are subject to us.

In the Church, authoritative legislators have written rules which concern the celebration of the Eucharist. Often it is hard for us to discern the “why” of the rules, even if we have extensively studied liturgical practices, history, and theories. But it is not our understanding which matters; it is the understanding of the legislator which matters. The rules are written by legitimate and loving authority; as such, so long as we wish to maintain membership in the particular society of the Church, they are to be followed. Satan will follow his successful formula, of course. He will suggest to us that our study and knowledge makes us superior, and that we can disobey the rules. Disobedience to legitimate authority is bad enough, but worse, should those who choose to disobey the rules be ‘rulers,’ the consequences may also fall on their subjects. This is a burden in conscience which is very significant.

It should also be understood that heresy and disobedience are two sides of the same coin. Each of them begins with pride. In each, someone decides to make their own ‘rules;’ the distinction lies only in whether they are rules of belief or practice. Each is both serious and foolish, and both could well lead to disaster—not only for the individual, but for those whom they rule.

Sincerely,


3 posted on 08/15/2004 11:45:32 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot
At one time a Roman Catholic could enter any Roman Catholic Church in the world, and be assured of a universally accepted Traditional Holy Mass - as approved by a whole hosts of men acting as His Vicar on Earth over a period of hundreds of years.

Local custom and language were intentionally absent. Holy Mass was offered in the official language of His Church - Latin.

Calling for the True Presence of the Blessed Trinity through the transformation of bread and wine into His Body and Blood was the most supreme and venerated moment of a Roman Catholic Holy Mass.

Throughout the Roman Catholic world, there was no departure from the tradition in which we paid reverence to Him. Half-naked native dress and/or tank-top and revealing hip-hugging shorts were naturally thought to be unacceptable by the faithful as disrespectful of His presence at Holy Mass.

Bishops appointed to shepard the local faithful, enforced a universal standard of decency, when in the presence of the Holy Tabernacle, and a state of sin was the driving standard which rightfully denied anyone the Body of the Risen Christ.

The presence of God in a Roman Catholic Church hasn't changed. The lack of presence of a Holy Tabernacle, and the all to common presence of unholy priests is the problem.

And who has a duty to oversee the correct instruction of seminarians in their quest for a life as a holy priests?

Before receiving the Sacrament of Holy Orders, Holy Vows are recited in the presence of a local bishop. Local Bishops receive appointment to that holy office by the will of God after repeating Holy Vows in the presence of God's Vicar on Earth. It is the duty of God's Vicar on Earth to instruct and as necessary admonish, reprimand, or finally cast out any member of His Church for willful disregard and or disobedience of divinely inspired laws governing His Church. In turn no Roman Catholic is required to obey the direction from a pope when that direction is in conflict with sacred teachings made part of the Sacred Dogma of His Church prior to the tenure of an errant pope.

One need only follow the chain of authority to know who has been appointing the anti-Sacred Dogma anti-Sacred Tradition blaspheming and heretic bishops who act in contradiction of Sacred Dogma for the purpose of confusing and making meaningless the truth of Roman Catholicism as the One True Faith.

With the blessing of Karol Wojtyla,'Interfaith Commissions' composed primarily by protestant clergy are destroying Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition in the vile name of ecumenicalism - replacing the same with protestant practices planned for and executed by the greatest threat to Roman Catholicism - the worshipers of Mao and Lenin.

At one time it was said 'all roads lead to Rome'. Moral decadence and spiritual decay in the Roman Catholic Church was given form through the spiritual usurpers controlling the outcome of Vatican II with Karol Wojtyla leading the coup. Should the atheists, pagan idolators, blasphemers,heretics, and those in perpetual sin mocking His Holy Sacraments have their way, Rome will of necessity cease to be the spiritual center of The One True Church.

St. Pius X, pray for us.

16 posted on 08/15/2004 2:49:58 PM PDT by Robert Drobot (God, family, country. All else is meaningless.)
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To: ninenot

given that your heretical bishops (how *do* you pronounce that guy's name?) are like our heretical bishops, everytime they use the word heresy, hit back with a half dozen or so examples of the heretical nature of their actions when compared to Holy Scripture, the Early Church Fathers, and so on. It takes a while but when you start pointing out all of the previously unanswered heresies on their part (as they try to ignor them) eventually they'll stop using the word for fear of having to actually defend themselves.


37 posted on 08/15/2004 6:57:35 PM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com is the url for the Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: ninenot

Well, see, the rubrics should be so ingrained that they are reflex - at least, that's the way it is for me. It's very jarring when something goes wrong or isn't there. They tell us it's just external trappings, but every Mass I attend with no bells, just seems to be lacking something.

I realize that the rubric infractions at my parish are minor, but still...


42 posted on 08/15/2004 8:45:01 PM PDT by Desdemona (Labrador Retrievers - people dogs for dog people.)
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