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To: Buggman
Thanks for those kind words.

I'm pretty much a newcomer to these threads, and I watch in horror as Christians of all stripes repudiate day, after day, after day, Christ's Command to "Love one another, as I have Loved thee." It is striking, and the reason one sees bumper stickers that proclaim, 'Lord, save me from your followers.' It is ineffably sad, and tremendously embarrassing. Goodness, gracious, how can Peace possibly prevail as such?

I spent many years away from the Catholic Church, and it is of late (last couple of years) that I have returned. There are a few things I disagree with the Church on, primary among them being The Doctrine of Infallibility. While certainly not an expert on Scripture or Church History, from what I do know, it is a counter-intuitive Doctrine in very large measure.

I do believe that God makes the Holy Spirit available to the Pope, but as I see it, God does not take away his free will, his free thought, etc. Obviously, The Holy Spirit can make no error, but to claim that the Pope is accordingly infallible, is to reduce him to a tool of the Holy Spirit. And, to me, that seems totally at odds with Scripture as I understand it.

I have no desire to rail against the Pope, he is probably a very Holy Man, 100x the person I am, and perhaps my views put me outside the acceptance of the Church, but it is very hard for me to feel worried about that, when the entire heirarchy seems loathe to act vehemently against the pederasts, those Church 'leaders' who moved them from sight to sight, syncretism (sp?), etc.

The Church's first impulse when the pederast scandal broke, like an ossified State, was to convene a 'Conference' about the matter. Zero tolerance? How about Zero Confidence?

What keeps me a Catholic is the Liturgy. I feel so connected to the Lord during the Sacrifice of the Mass that I just can't abandon it. If my judgements are in error, I ask the Lord to forgive me and lead me to the truth. But, what I currently believe, is that it is not correct to believe that the Pope, not just this Pope, any Pope, is not capable of error as it relates to Church teaching.

And I do believe Paul's admonishment that Charity is the greatest of all three.

482 posted on 08/13/2004 4:04:24 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: AlbionGirl
I do believe that God makes the Holy Spirit available to the Pope,

Actually, the Holy Spirit is available to every believer; He is the indwelling presence of God in the heart or every Christian.

483 posted on 08/13/2004 4:22:26 PM PDT by CA Conservative
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To: AlbionGirl
I do believe that God makes the Holy Spirit available to the Pope, but as I see it, God does not take away his free will, his free thought, etc. Obviously, The Holy Spirit can make no error, but to claim that the Pope is accordingly infallible, is to reduce him to a tool of the Holy Spirit. And, to me, that seems totally at odds with Scripture as I understand it.

Perhaps you misunderstand the Scriptural concept of free will.

I think I have now discussed the point fully enough in opposition to those who vehemently oppose the grace of God, by which, however, the human will is not taken away, but changed from bad to good, and assisted when it is good. I think, too, that I have so discussed the subject, that it is not so much I myself as the inspired Scripture which has spoken to you, in the clearest testimonies of truth; and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men's good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are so entirely at the disposal of God, that He turns them whithersoever He wills, and whensoever He wills,--to bestow kindness on some, and to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous ... Was it not of their own will that the enemies of the children of Israel fought against the people of God, as led by Joshua, the son of Nun? And yet the Scripture says, "It was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that they might be exterminated," ... Did not Absalom choose by his own will the counsel which was detrimental to him? And yet the reason of his doing so was that the Lord had heard his father's prayer that it might be so. Wherefore the Scripture says that "the Lord appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the Lord might bring all evils upon Absalom." ... Still, did these Philistines and Arabians invade the land of Judah to waste it with no will of their own? Or were their movements so directed by their own will that the Scripture lies which tells us that "the Lord stirred up their spirit" to do all this? Both statements to be sure are true, because they both came by their own will, and yet the Lord stirred up their spirit; and this may also with equal truth be stated the other way: The Lord both stirred up their spirit, and yet they came of their own will. For the Almighty sets in motion even in the innermost hearts of men the movement of their will, so that He does through their agency whatsoever He wishes to perform through them,--even He who knows not how to will anything in unrighteousness ... From these statements of the inspired word, and from similar passages which it would take too long to quote in full, it is, I think, sufficiently clear that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills whithersoever He wills, whether to good deeds according to His mercy, or to evil after their own deserts; His own judgment being sometimes manifest, sometimes secret, but always righteous. (Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, 41-43)

Consider, Albion, that your theory would also derogate from the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture.

... Moses or of Isaiah and Jeremiah, and the other prophets, who, lifted in ecstasy above the natural operations of their minds by the impulses of the Divine Spirit, uttered the things with which they were inspired, the Spirit making use of them as a flute-player breathes into a flute ... (Athenagoras, Plea for Christians, 9)

How could this be so under your theory of free will, in which men cannot be instruments of the Spirit?

487 posted on 08/13/2004 4:53:50 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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