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To: gentlestrength
You do realize that the Gospel of John was originally written in Greek. The part of John 3:16 to which you refer is part of what is called a 'hina' clause. The text (transliterated into Engish characters that phonetically match the Greek) literally states 'hina pas pisteuon eis auton me apoleitai ekso zoen aionion' which is literally rendered into English as 'that all the one trusting into him not might be destroyed but have life eternal.' The English term 'whosoever' has nuances that are not contained in the original. Again, I reiterate, that the point of the passage is that all who believe are saved. This passage does not address the identity of those believers, but simply states that all are saved. We heartily agree with that.

You have also ignored the breath of the term 'kosmos' (world) in John's gospel. The term can legitimately mean all the nations.

To maintain your view of univesal atonement you must also handle John 6:35-47, letting the text say what it says... I challenge you to do so.

Blessings to you as well.

9 posted on 08/09/2004 6:41:40 PM PDT by RochesterFan (Proud to be a FR Calvinist - but wary: we're on the endangered species list...)
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To: RochesterFan

You wrongly imply that someone cannot understand the Gospel unless being fluent in ancient Greek. But your own Greek makes the case for me, if you will be consistent.

"The passage...simply states we are all saved." Yes it does. Jesus death was for the entire world. But that is not what Calvinism teaches: His death is not for the non-elect, the non-chosen by God. That is not Christianity. The "elect" are the believers in Christ. Christ died for all the world. As YOU say, "that ALL the one trusting into him not might be destroyed but have life eternal."

All the world's sin IS paid by Christ. Only believers are "elect." But unbelievers are not 'non' elect, but are unbelievers.

You avoided my second point, that 1 Jn. 2.2 says His death "is NOT for our sins only, but for the sins of the entire world." You must not take from Scripture passages that don't fit.

re; Jn.:6 Yes, no one can come to God unless He draws them. He paid for the sins of the entire world. All. He who believes, has eternal life, and is called in other passages 'elect', 'children of God' etc. NOwhere is there a passage which says the converse (as Calvinism does), that he who does not believe is noN-elect.

Jesus will 'lose nothing of what the Father has given Him.' He died for the sins of all people, but all do not believe. God cannot 'give' to Jesus someone who refuses to accept His death for them. It's not a possibility. It's a categorical mistake. There is not a special chosen group which God 'gives', AND others which God does not give. You will not find ANY NON-chosen group in the category of "all the world".

The problem's pretty simple, for anyone still reading. Does God offer forgiveness to all, or only to some? Christianity teaches that God loves all people, actually chooses to give His only Son to die in our place. He rose from the dead. God accepts Jesus as our Substitute. He "draws" us to Him, and says "He who comes to Me, I will not cast away." YOU are chosen by God for His love and forgiveness! If you will not believe, you will not be called one of the 'believers, the elect.' But Calvinism is wrong here, saying God chooses some and not others.


10 posted on 08/11/2004 2:04:18 AM PDT by gentlestrength
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