Posted on 08/04/2004 12:32:44 PM PDT by xzins
The Council of Orange was held in 529.
Morgan died from 420-440...no exact date so far as I know.
They were dealing with "pelagianism" as opposed to Pelagius....who again was not present to defend himself, and who again was condemned by Augustine's writings against him.
There is reason to doubt that what Augustine concocted was not what Morgan believed.
What you fail to realize is that Pelagius' writings are not available only to ~us~.
I would think that his writings were in ample supply at the time of the controversy with Augustine.
I would also think that he was somewhat influential -so much so that Augustine felt the need to defend the orthodox faith.
If he was just this lone unheard of voice without much influence, it is inconceivable that Augustine would have spent the time battling him as he did.
Thus, instead of dealing with the substance of Augustine's doctrines, you seem to now have the need to attack his character.
Your seeming attempts to paint Pelagius as a nice, mild-mannered gentleman living a secluded life and, perhaps, tending to a garden somewhere "up north" only to be unjustly libeled by a mean, nasty, vengeful Augustine is a little ridiculous.
This is the same attempt the liberals use in order to soften public sentiment against all sorts of immoral practices.
Just look how successful the homosexual community has been at painting those of us who are against homosexuality as being "hateful" and "mean".
When you can't substantively defend your doctrine in the face of opposing doctrine, resort to character attacks.
Speculate about Augustines motivations -something you have no way to verify or prove- and then call it "reason to doubt".
You've done well, xzins.
Jean
There is reason to doubt the accuracy of the record.
There is no reason to doubt that "pelagianism" is an unbiblical doctrine.
There is reason to doubt that that teaching is what was taught by Morgan of Wales.
Morgan was identified with the group that rejected Augustine in his failed mission to incorporate the Celtic Church into Roman Catholicism.
Your resort to character attacks on Augustine is quite telling.
Jean
They are different by degree.
Always they are the result of piecing together Morgan's beliefs from what little remains from him and also from what his opponents charged him with.
It is difficult to glean from history the teachings of Morgan for little remains of his writings. We must rely on the polemics of his Augustinian opponents who have displayed less than honorable intentions when dealing with Morgan and who have often confused his teachings with that of the condemned Celestianism.
It is true that Augustine had a failed mission to the Celtic Church.
It is true that Morgan was identified with that church.
It is true that Augustine represented the Roman Church in his failed mission.
It is true that the Roman Church was rejected by the Celtic Church.
It is true that when Morgan defended himself and was present that he was acquited.
It is true that when Morgan was absent and Augustine presented his opposition against Morgan that Morgan was convicted.
It is true that Augustine sought military force against the Donatists (see Jude's post) in light of their heresy.
You paint this as a Morgan/Augustine conflict. But no matter HOW you slice the cookie Morgan's teachings were NOT the teachings of the early church fathers-all of them. Not just Augustine and his cohorts. Augustine's teachings just happened to agree with all the other early church fathers. Morgan and you do not.
I have said about my beliefs that I reject what is commonly referred to as pelagianism.
I have also said that there is decent reason to believe that Morgan of Wales ALSO did not teach what he was accused of teaching.
Actually, I posted the article for discussion sake.
My point is that there is decent reason to believe that Morgan's views have been misrepresented.
Augustine's doctrines are not the issue of the article, if one desires to stay on topic. The legitimacy of the past portrayal of Morgan is the issue.
I don't personally know anyone who subscribes to what is commonly called "pelagianism."
Do you understand the difference now?
It's similar to the debate: "Lincoln opposed slavery." There are reasons to believe he did not, but that he acted out of political expediency.
"Morgan taught what is commonly called 'pelagianism.'" There are reasons to believe that he did not, but that his views have been misrepresented.....either through misunderstanding, misapplication, mistake, or misdirection.
Does that mean that Bill Clinton really didn't sleep with Monica?
Tying your points to the speculations that Augustine had alterior motives is a non-sequitor.
The tactic you are attempting to use to discredit Augustine is called "poisoning the well". It is a very effective ploy -but it is also a logical fallacy.
Jean
I'm convinced that you are not discussing what the issue of article is.
I am responding to points that ~you~ have made on this thread (before I even posted) by pointing out your ultimate objective.
Jean
As you point out, you are not discussing the issues of the article.
That issues involve the historical evidence that Morgan's views might not have been fairly represented.
As you point out, you are not discussing the issues of the article.
THOSE(correction) issues involve the historical evidence that Morgan's views might not have been fairly represented.
Since I was responding to facts you made in your posts, then perhaps you should point that finger back at yourself.
But ultimately, what's your point? Are you trying to make a case that I'm posting against FR rules in hopes that I, too, get banned?
Jean
As I've pointed out, the issue of the article involves the adequacy to date of how Morgan of Wales has been presented.
I don't think the article mentions either one of us.
Jean
Refer to post #27.
Not unfounded and simply a historical discussion.
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