I doubt my wording accused you particularly personally. I accuse the mentalities described and a vast host of churches...I know you didn't mean it personally. Still, you have been very clear that individuals who reject Warren's methods must possess the "mentalities" you speak of. This is painting your brothers in Christ with a ridiculously large brush. Acceptance of the Saddleback formula is not a litmus test for true Christianity.
...a vast number of the churches demonstrating such mentalities and standard stances and practices are a hideous charade of Christianity. And they doom countless SEEKERS and lifelong Christians to hell weekly.I got the strong inkling reading Warren's book that "It's not about you" actually means "It's ALL about you", and this goes far to prove the point. If we can doom "lifelong Christians" (or anyone else) to hell with our stodgy old doctrine, we have more power than Christ Himself, since he promises not to cast out the sheep.
Thanks for your great reply.
MSCASEY--may be this evening before I get to yours.
I felt a broad blackwashing brush was applied to Bro Warren and that rather inaccurately and unfairly. Yes, I used SOMEWHAT of a broad stroke in reply.
BUT I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN FOLK ACCEPTING IT WHEN AND WHERE THE SHOE FITS according to Holy Spirit's convicting work. NOT otherwise.
AND, I'M INCREASINGLY ANNOYED AND WORSE, GRIEVED IN MY SPIRIT by a too quickly owned and thrown
'AGIN IT'
ATTITUDE AND MENTALITY--PROBABLY A SPIRIT
that a LOT of staid, stuck in the mud; stuck in traditions of men ruts etc. sorts of mentalities, groups etc. get on their high horses with regarding a list of things, people, groups, strategies
WHICH HOLY SPIRIT IS OBVIOUSLY AND THOROUGHLY BLESSING AND MOVING THROUGH whether they do it per my script or not.
And, my reading of the NT is that Christ had little to NO patience for such nonsense. I'd rather risk joining HIM AND HIS PERSPECTIVE too intensely on such matters than to risk being amongst those HE censured about such attitudes and stances.
I see this sort of nonsense IN EVERY DENOMINATION. Certainly I think some are every cell and fiber infected like the WELS. But the rot is in every denomination and ALMOST every group older than a year and a half. It's epidemic, insideous and hell inspired just as it was in NT times.
No, acceptance of Warren's marching orders FROM THE LORD is not a litmus test of Christianity.
HOWEVER, "BY THIS SHALL ALL MEN KNOWN . . ."
IS
A LITMUS TEST GIVEN BY THE LORD HIMSELF.
And throwing traditions of men bound blackwashing rocks at thing and people, strategies God is OBVIOUSLY using seems to be the opposite of The Lord's litmus test, to me.
The "IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU" is earnestly felt and taught by Warren and group. He means it. He disciples accordingly. It's obvious.
However, in a sense, THE CROSS demonstrates, that, to the point of death of God's Only Son--it was and IS all about the lost. God moves Heaven and earth to rescue one amongst the 90 and 9.
But I see really, NOTHING in Warren's operation that smacks of the stuff you characters accuse him of. I expected to see at least some example of such--maybe even 20-30%. I saw NOTHING of it and in fact MUCH MORE THE OPPOSITE THAN I EXPECTED TO FIND.
That says a LOT to me. And I went with quite a bit of my discernment antennae quite alert. I was touched and humbled by how much the opposite of your accusations his operation obviously was.
I can't fully account for the blindness that doesn't see it.
I have no intention of getting into the Calvinist Armenian debates with you.
I think it's much important to keep in mind that Scriptures talk about TO THE OVERCOMER . . .
Certainly Christ doesn't toss out SHEEP. And, He goes to great lengths to rescue even sheep who stubbornly and repeatedly wander away or even run off hell bent for destruction. And there I'll stop on that score.
Thanks for your rational msg.
Blessings to you and yours.
True. Acceptance of any particular congregational pattern, mentality, construction on spiritual reality, detailed parochial doctrine etc. is not a litmus test of authentic Christianity.
Neither is rejecting what Holy Spirit is doing through Rick Warren a litmus test of super spirituality.
Prissy-ness perhaps, but not super spirituality.
I suppose one could imagine all kinds of things based on Rick Warren's words. But pretending that his clear emphasis that it's NOT about you to = it IS about you is an incredible 180 degree perversion of what Holy Spirit is saying through Rick Warren.
imho, of course.