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danjuma1@aol.com Saturday, March 26, 2005
'PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE' AUTHOR RICK WARREN TELLS LARRY KING "GOD USES ORDINARY PEOPLE"
By Michael Ireland
Chief Correspondent, ASSIST News Service
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA (ANS) -- Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren appeared in his first live prime time interview since hostage Ashley Smith read his bestseller, "The Purpose Driven Life" to the alleged Atlanta courthouse killing suspect, Brian Nichols, after which Nichols let her go and surrendered to police. (Pictured: Rick Warren addressing pastors at the recent Billy Graham crusade in Pasadena).
Just back from Africa, Warren has emerged as one of the most famous names in America. He was in "Time" magazine along with leading Evangelicals among America's 25 most influential people. Now, with the story of 'hostage-to-hero' Ashley Smith, her story becomes partially the story of Rick Warren.
Talk show host Larry King interviewed Warren in a CNN program that aired March 22, 2005. The following report was taken from a rush transcript of that interview.
King asked Warren: "You were in Africa when all this happened. How did you hear about it? "
"Well, that's right, Larry. I actually heard about it from you. I had been out in the bush all day. We'd been working with orphans that had been orphaned through the genocide in Rwanda, and also orphaned by AIDS. And after a pretty grueling day, we got back to the hotel, and I flipped on the TV and there you were talking about how 'The Purpose Driven Life' had been used by Ashley to convince Brian to turn himself in. And so, I actually heard about it through you.
"What was your first reaction?" King asked.
"Well, I was, of course, humbled by that. I was thrilled at it. I had mixed emotions in the fact that first I felt sorry for those who had already lost their lives and loved ones that were left behind. And I prayed for them and expressed my condolences for them, because I just wish the message had got there sooner, that maybe Brian wouldn't have taken four lives before he got the good news. But I was thrilled that Ashley was able to have the presence of mind to talk to him. And when he got the concept, it changed his life" Warren replied.
"Have you spoken to Ashley?" King asked>
"Oh, yes. I'm talking to her on a daily basis and basically just giving her pastoral encouragement, that's what -- praying with her, reading a scripture, helping to sort out what's happened to her. And -- these kind of things, I've helped a lot of people before, that they have a crisis and then, of course, after the crisis comes, the media deluge. And it can be pretty unsettling to everybody. And so, I'm just helping her behind the scenes."
Did Warren call Smith from Africa?
" No, I wasn't able to contact her because I was out of contact both by Internet and by phone most of the time I was there. I did send an E-mail to her and then we set up a meeting to talk. She was anxious to talk as soon as I got back into town and then we've been doing that."
Did Warren know Smith before this?
"No. No, I had never met her. I know one of her pastors who was in the church she attends, and it's a purpose driven church. That's -- they had been through, actually, the 40 days of Purpose Driven Program when this happened. And so, she had been watching me on videotape once a week in her small group, not just reading the book. I think she was going through it for the third time, so she was pretty well familiar with the material."
King said: "When she went public for the first time, Rick, she explained to reporters what led her to read from your book. Lets take a look at what she said."
In the video, Ashley Smith, is seen telling her story.
"I asked him (Nichols) if I could read. He said, what do you want to read? I said, well, I have a book in my room. So, I went and got it. I got my Bible. Then I got a book called 'The Purpose Driven Life.' I turned it to a chapter that I was on that day, which was chapter 33. And I started to read the first paragraph of it. After I read it, he said, stop, will you read it again? So, I read it again to him.
"He mentioned something about what you thought your purpose in life was, what were you -- what talents were you given? What gifts were you given to use? I asked him what he thought? And he said, I think that it's to talk to people and tell them, you know, about you."
King asked Warren if he would minister to Brian Nichols, if asked?
"I haven't had a chance to talk to Brian yet, but it is my desire to get in touch with him and kind of see where he is spiritually and you know, how we could help him too. You know, that chapter that she chose, Larry, as you know, the book is divided into 40 days. And she happened to just be on day 33, which is about being a servant. And she read that passage. And the bottom line is, when people understand that their life is not an accident, that they were made to last forever, that God put them here for a purpose. That there are accidental parents, but I don't believe there are any accidental children. There are illegitimate parents, but I don't believe there are any illegitimate children. If you're alive, there's a purpose for your life. As she began to talk about this and read the passage on serving, it just clicked with Brian. And actually, then she modeled it. She served him, by serving him breakfast…"
Warren said Nichols then helped Ashley Smith fix some curtains.
"Curtains -- exactly, that she needed fixed. And something keyed in there. I think part of it was that Ashley understands grace. You know, she has been real honest about her past. And she had some problems, she had some difficulties -- had some mistakes in her life. And you know, when you've experienced grace and you feel like you've been forgiven, you're a lot more forgiving of other people. You're a lot more gracious to others. And she just showed this guy kindness, and he responded to it."
King asked Warren: "How -- how is she doing? Is her mood uplifting? She's not doing any media, so you'll be a link for us. How is she doing? We're all so interested in her."
"Well, she's doing really good right now. And I think, there (are) just some people around who are protecting her, making sure she's not just overwhelmed. Obviously, this is the story of the week, and actually, the story of the month. And she wanted to keep her sanity. She's got -- she's a single mother. She's got a young child, Paige is 5-years-old. And I think she's doing really good. As, I said, I talked to her today, again, and asked her, I said, how are you doing? And she said, well, I feel like God used me. And I, of course, believed that.
"You know, this guy was acting in -- when he started killing people, when Brian Nichols started killing people -- when people lack hope, they do hopeless things. And I think this guy actually felt hopeless. And so, he was lashing out, not in a good way. Obviously, he took four lives and we're sorry for that.
"But what people are looking for is a reason for hope. And when Ashley explained to him, you know what, this is not what you're meant to do, this is not what you're meant to live for, he immediately resonated from it and actually called her -- said you're an angel sent from God. And the change was instant."
Could Brian Nichols still have, in his situation, a purpose driven life? King asked.
"Absolutely. Now, there's no doubt that the Bible teaches when someone commits a crime, that the government has the authority to punish people for it. And he may lose his life, he may get the death penalty. But before -- as long as he's alive here on earth, there will be a purpose for his life. And of course, that purpose now becomes greater -- and in fact, I think that's really what the message this week of Easter is, is that God can bring good out of bad.
"That he turns crucifixions into resurrections. That he takes the mess of our life, and when we give him all the pieces, he can -- God can put it together in a new way. And the message, I think there's two messages out of this story. One of them is, that God can use anybody. Ashley will tell you, she's just an ordinary person. She wasn't some saint. She wasn't some preacher or some theologian. God uses normal ordinary people in daily life. And if God only used perfect people, nothing would get done. Because none of us is perfect. We've all got our faults, mistakes in our backgrounds.
"And I think, that's the story - that God uses us in spite of ourselves, and in spite of weaknesses and faults. And I think the other thing is, that opportunities are all around us, but a lot of times we're just unaware of it. Everybody wants to serve God in a great way. But in that chapter, I talk about, why don't you just serve God in a little way and watch what he wants to do.
"And she, obviously, she just went out for a pack of cigarettes. And as she went out, I'm sure she didn't have any plan of being some kind of savior or super person. But she just went out for some cigarettes, and when she came back, the opportunity presented itself and she responded in love to this guy and he melted."
In another video clip, Ashley Smith says: "He (Nichols) said he thought that I was an angel sent from God. And that I was his sister and he was my brother in Christ. And that he was lost and God led him right to me."
King asked Warren if her fame (is) an opportunity, or can there be dangers in that?
"Well, that's a good question, Larry. I believe that the purpose of influence is to speak up for those who have no influence. And fame is not for our own benefit, or notoriety is not for our own benefit, it's for leverage to do good. And I think Ashley is definitely doing good with her life, I think she is an inspiration for a lot of people.
"You know, this was simply a young woman who was going about her daily life, and she showed courage. I'm sure she was scared to death when Brian took her captive and made her a hostage. But courage is doing the right thing in spite of your fear. And she, instead of seeing this guy as a monster, just thought, well, how can I -- how can I see him as a person? And as she began to meet his needs, he began to become more of a human being. And I think that's an example for all of us, that even the most monstrous person that -- I've discovered that hurt people hurt people. That when you're hurting inside, you tend to hurt other people. And clearly, he was doing that. He was lashing out against the world in a very dangerous way."
"It's got to make you feel very good and very proud, aren't you?" said King.
"Well, I'm humbled by the whole thing. I'm not surprised by it, actually, because I've received thousands and thousands of letters literally from all around the world of people's lives who have been changed when they discovered, hey, I'm here for a reason, I am here for a purpose. It has the power to change people's lives.
"It's not as dramatic as this one with Ashley and Brian. But I have heard these stories. And even when I was in Rwanda, I saw this taking place there, where an entire nation is kind of coming up out of the ashes. You know, they went through that genocide in '94, and the world turned its back on an entire nation, and yet I saw a nation learning to forgive, expressing reconciliation, rebuilding.
"And I asked them, what's the reason here? And they said it's God, it's Jesus Christ. These things have -- we've been learning that we have to forgive, because if we hold on to our hurt, it only make us miserable."
Larry King then asked: "You can, though, Rick, have a purpose-driven life and be an agnostic or an atheist, can't you? Still do good, still help others, still have purpose?"
"Absolutely, you can help other people. I believe that we were made for a purpose, and that purpose is really to know God and to serve God and to love God, and to serve other people by -- serve God by serving others. You know, you can't really serve God directly, Larry, not here on Earth. The only way you can serve God is by serving other people."
KING: Since you believe in God, if an agnostic or an atheist is doing good, God appreciates it, according to you, right?
WARREN: God wants us all to be loving to each other, there is no doubt about that. In fact, Jesus wouldn't have made any distinction between someone who was of a different background. The issue was, do they love him and do they have a purpose? Are they following his purpose? See, I believe that we were made by God and that we were made for God. And that until we understand that, life isn't going to make sense. Now, really when it comes to purpose, you've only got three alternatives. One of them is, you can just make up a purpose and say, this is going to be the purpose of my life. But really, all along, you kind of know, well, is that really what I'm here for?
"Another way is to just speculate about it, and one of the popular ways today is to say, look within. And if you look within, then you'll discover your purpose.
"Well, there's only one problem with that. It doesn't work. I've talked to a lot of people. I looked within. I didn't find my purpose. Since I didn't create me, I can't tell me what my purpose is. I have got to look to my creator. And of course, the premise behind 'The Purpose-Driven Life' is that you're not an accident. That you were formed by God for a unique reason here on Earth, and that gives life meaning and significance.
"We've talked about this before. A lot of people have success, but they don't have significance. And significance comes from knowing you're not an accident, knowing you matter to God and knowing how much he loves you, and then fulfilling that purpose."
KING: Interesting note, Amber Frey gave Scott Peterson your book in February of 2003. She wanted him to read it and exchange written observations about it. A copy of your book, 'The Purpose-Driven Life,' was in Scott Peterson's car the day he was arrested. Guess he didn't read it?
WARREN: I guess he didn't read it. When the book has sold as many copies as this book has, you're going to find it in all kinds of places. And every time I turn around, I am hearing another story about it showing up in a place like Scott Peterson's back seat.
Ashley Smith was then seen in another video clip saying: "After I started to read to him, and he saw -- I guess he saw my faith and what I really believed in. I told him I was a child of God and that I wanted to do God's will. I guess he began to want to. That's what I think."
King asked Warren: "What do you make of this whole Terri Schiavo matter? The courts have still kept the feeding tube in. The polls indicate the public supports the husband. Where do you stand in all this incredible matter?"
WARREN: Yes, you know, Larry, the first place -- any poll, you can make a poll say anything you want by the way you frame the question, you know that. I think if people know the real story about Terri -- they think that she's on life support. She's not. They think she's brain dead, she's not.
"This is a woman who is not dying, at least she wasn't, until they started starving her. She's in a vegetative state. That is not brain dead, and doctors will tell you person can live in a vegetative state 15, 20, 30 years. It's unlikely that she would come out of it, but a lot of people do, and it does happen.
"If I were in a vegetative state, I would hope the people that love me would keep feeding me with the possibility I might come back out of that state. She's not on life support. This is not a matter -- this is not a right to die issue, in my opinion. It is the fact that they were just feeding a person who is, right now, mentally handicapped, and I, personally, I fear the day, that if we start saying, well, you don't have a right to live if you are mentally handicapped or you're physically handicapped or emotionally handicapped, and you -- we'll just, you know, stop feeding you. This is starvation. It's not pulling artificial life support, it's saying, we're just not going to feed you anymore. To me, that is an atrocity worthy of Nazism."
KING: How about the law? Aren't we a nation of laws and don't we -- aren't we supposed to follow the courts?
WARREN: Of course, we're a nation of laws, but the good thing about America, is that laws reside in the people and people can change the laws. And that's the value of democracy. That's why I love this country, because if a law is wrong, it can be changed, it can be changed by our representatives.
"I think, unfortunately, Larry, this thing has become a political or ideological football and they're not thinking about the person. Terri is a real person, who smiles, who gives affection, who laughs and things like that. In fact, I was talking earlier today with the lead attorney, David Gibbs, for Terri's parents. He was telling me that, you know, she was responding today with laughing. Well, a person who's on life support doesn't laugh. She smiles. A person who is, you know, has lost brain wave activity doesn't smile.
"Barbara Weller just sent this and it said, 'just before I left the room, I leaned over Terri and I spoke right into her ear. I told her I was very sorry that I had not been able to stop the feeding tube from being taken out and I was sorry I had to leave her alone. But I reminded her Jesus would stay right by her side even when no one else was there with her. When I mentioned Jesus name, Terri laughed out loud, she became very agitated and began loudly trying to speak to me again. And as Terri continued to laugh and try to speak, I quietly prayed in her ear and then I left the room. Terri is alone now, and as I write this, last visit narrative, it's 5:00 in the morning of March 19. Terri has been without food and water for nearly 17 hours, and I'm sure she's beginning to at least feel thirsty, if not hungry, and I'm left to wonder how many other people care.'
"That's not the story of somebody who's lost all brain wave activity and clearly is just, you know, an organism there. There's still a person there and they're starving her."
King then asked Warren about Pat Boone's grandson, Ryan, "(who) as you know, had that terrible trauma. How is Ryan doing?"
WARREN: Well, that's good. Thanks for asking.
"There's a good parallel to the Terri Schiavo case, and that is, Ryan, because of the brain damage, you would have thought that this guy was just going to be in a vegetative state the rest of his life. But I talked to Mike and to Lindy actually earlier today, and a couple of developments have happened just in the last two weeks. One of them is, Ryan has started speaking in entire sentences. Now, that's first, and he has not done that since his accident several years ago. And the second thing is, Lindy walked into the room the other day and he opened his arms wide to reach out to her. Now, that is a first, too, because of his left arm has been pretty much paralyzed and uncontrollable.
"And, so, those two things give everybody here in our church and in their family hope. But, again, it's a slow process. What if somebody had said, well, you know what, he's not going to recover from this, let's not feed him, and he wouldn't be making the progress he's making today."
KING: Rick, why do bad things happen to good people?
WARREN: Well, Larry, it's because we live in a broken world. This is not (a) perfect world. This is not heaven and that's why we're depraved. 'Thy will be done on earth as it is heaven.' Why? Because in heaven, everything's done perfectly. Things are not done perfectly on this earth.
"God gave us a freedom to choose. As a result of choices, we make mistakes, we blow it -- and whenever I make mistakes, whenever I sin, it always causes damage and causes hurt.
"The Bible teaches that since sin entered the world, way back with the very first human beings, we have lived in an imperfect, broken planet, and that causes hurricanes and tornadoes, and all kinds of things. This is not a perfect planet. So, we should not be surprised that it's not paradise. And also, life is not fair. In fact, the Bible says life is not fair. It's just not fair."
KING: How do you like -- I understand that you're on greeting cards now -- quotes from "The Purpose-Driven Life" is in the select group of greetings card that bookstores are putting it in the front. Are you now a commodity?
WARREN: Well, I hope not. I tell you this. Marketing is when you create a message in order to push a product, but what I'm doing is the exact opposite. I'm just looking for products to share a message, because I believe that the message is life-changing -- and by the way, I didn't come up with that distinction, that was said about me in the New York Times, that I'm creating ways to simply share the message, that God loves you, he has a plan and purpose for your life, Jesus Christ died for you, there is a reason for the things that happen in your life. And even the bad things, God can bring good out of bad.
"That's what Easter's all about, and -- the message isn't really anything new, Larry. It's been taught for 2,000 years in churches. If somebody wants to hear it, they don't have to read my book, just go to church on Easter and hear it."
Another video clip showed Ashley Smith saying: "Throughout my time with Mr. Nichols, I continued to rely on my faith in God. God has helped me through tough times before, and he'll help me now."
Before taking calls from the viewing public, King commented: "This Sunday, at Easter service, Rick Warren will be celebrating 25 years at the Saddleback Church. He first conducted his first service there 25 years ago Easter Sunday. Congratulations.
WARREN: Thank you, Larry. And actually, I'm going to be doing the message on 'The Purpose-Driven Life.' I just thought that would be a good message, since the church was built on that. We're going to repeat that message on Easter Sunday.
** This article was prepared from a rush transcript of the March 22, 2005 Larry King Live program on CNN. It has been edited for this article and is not meant to be a complete record of that interview. Every effort has been made to retain the accuracy of that conversation.