Posted on 07/26/2004 1:57:27 PM PDT by Lasher
Would like to know if there are any other Christians out there that have not swallowed Rick Warren's version of the Gospel. I left my "seeker-friendly" Church after much prayer and ponder, and it took several months to make the split. I still must speak with my former pastor about this, so until I do, I will not name my former Church. I have noticed that most who follow the "Purpose Driven" material are emotionally attached to it, much like true Christians are emotionally tied to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Tell us how you really feel..
B'Shem Y'shua
chuck
The religious human critter seems to have an unbridled capacity to find fault.
Help yourself at your own risk.
Can you show me one place in Scripture where the naysayers were on God's side of an issue or situation?
ME TOO. My favorite is A.W. Tozer. He inspires me with a Clear Vision of God..........
Read the Warren Smith book and see if you still say that. Until you go and do your research, and know your Scriptures, you will never see how Warren departs from the true Gospel and preaches "another gospel" (let him be accursed).
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/downloads.php has a bunch of good articles for you to read too. In particular "How the Purpose Driven Life Obscures the Gospel" free for the downloading.
Tell me, do you think we have a tendency to be too legalistic in this society or too permissive? Too much law or too much Gospel? Is our society too hedonistic or too Victorian?
If you answer Legalistic, too victorian, I would answer then why do we have such rampant crime, licentiousness, drunkenness, exploitation of women and children, etc...? If you say we are too legalistic you are outright wrong and I cannot continue this dialogue with any hope of opening your eyes.
If you say hedonistic and permissive, I would agree, and answer, then consider this:
If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the Word of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Him. Where the battle rages there the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle front besides, is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point. -Martin Luther
Rick Warren has written a whole book that tells us how to avoid the place where the battle action is happening without appearing to be a shirker or deserter. Yet in his heart, and the heart of anyone who espouses these teachings of his, because you seek to avoid conflict in the very place that needs reinforcement, that is exactly what he is. And God hates cowardice.
The cowardice that excludes from heaven is the cowardice that refuses to take the risk involved in being identified with Christ. It was dangerous to be a Christian when John wrote this book. Christians were being martyred constantly. You didn't raise your hand; go forward, and live happily ever after. Your stand for Christ was often the signing of your death warrant. You risk your business, your home, your family, and everything, when the Romans began to persecute Christians. Masses of people who professed to be Christians in times of peace and safety denied Christ and forsook the church when it involved risk. All they wanted was a religion that promised them good things. They wanted fire insurance to keep them out of the flames of hell, but they were not going to burn at the stake to collect it benefits. They refuse to pay the premium of risk, and, therefore, their insurance is cancelled says John, and the lake of fire is their destiny. "He who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom," said Jesus. The coward who forsakes Christ when the heat is on literally leaps out of the frying pan into the fire. The language of revelation is strong and frightening because it is addressed to those in the midst of great spiritual warfare. The commander does not say to his troups as they face the enemy attack: "Any of you guys who cannot take it, just fall back and trucks will be ready to take you off the field of battle." No! He says, "I'll shoot the first man who turns his back to the enemy." Rough words, and seemingly cruel, but there is no alternative if the battle is to be won. So it is in the Christian battle. No person should ever become a Christian with the idea in mind that Christians receive special permission to cop out of life's battles. Jesus says, "Take up the cross and follow me." Paul says, "Put on the whole armor of God." No where do we read that Christians are free to go AWOL because Jesus paid it all.
Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part {will be} in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Jesus warned Peter that he would deny knowing him - and this was when Peter's safety was at stake - he could admit knowing and loving Jesus and risk his own physical safety - or deny and remain relatively safe. How much more are we to be warned against denying our Lord when all we have to risk is a little social offense? What fat lazy wimpy Christians we are that we spend all this money to build a church that is empty of real meaning and purpose, and name it "purpose filled" or "purpose driven" to make us feel better.
The Church's purpose is to preach Christ crucified in all its truth, without compromise. The purposes Warren says are for the church are natural outflow from doing that. You cannot have them, not in truth, without first laying the foundation of Truth.
Rick Warren owes the church, and Jesus himself, an apology, for cheapening His grace and trampling the Cross of Christ underfoot.
In all seriousness, he is not to be toyed with.
It also dovetails quite well with Marxism, Communism, Fascism, liberalism, Satanism, Wicca, Bahai, kaballa... you name it! I guess Christianity isn't so unique after all!
Definitely agree.
I got this good link from a friend- listened to it this morning - the true prophets were always HIGHLY JEALOUS of God's Word.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3315
I don't know who the speaker is but I haven't heard that kind of Scriptural exposition in years. I am wandering in a desert of mediocre spiritual twinkie restaurants.
I'm skeptical that you've ever read Rick Warren--even the excerpts I've posted from him.
I have plenty to consider reading him and Srciptures. Those are all the references I need--particularly with Holy Spirit within me.
Of course our society is racing toward hell and a long ways down that road already. That doesn't keep hyper RELIGIOUS folks on various forums from being hyper legalistic and pharisaical.
I don't think you have much of a clue what Rick Warren is about.
Great non sequitur irrelevant nonsense.
Neither are true servants of The Most High God Almighty and His Son Jesus The Christ to be toyed with. Nor His Holy Spirit!
You surprise me. Read Warren Smith's book Deceived on Purpose. I have to admit when I read PDL I didn't find it too alarming, because I read it from the standpoint of someone who is grounded in doctrine and the dangers of false teachings.
However when I went back and 'thought like an unbeliever' as Rick Warren encourages in PDChurch, I realized I didn't get anything that points you in the RIGHT direction, unless you were already going that way and ALREADY knew where you were going.
The thing I found most alarming about Warren is the same thing my pastor is doing - talking out of both sides of his mouth. It's classic liberal politician-speak... we here SHOULD be able to recognize it, I am surprised that people are missing it. This is only ONE example among many, but this is the most GLARING example because the contradicting ideas occur within a sentence or two of each other:
in chapter 13 (page 248) in #12 of PDC, he states
It takes unselfish, mature believers to offer a seeker-sensitive service.
This seems to warn the reader that only mature Christians can successfully do this. [I find it interesting to note that Warren worded it nebulously enough that my hubby Cyrano took it to mean "Only mature Christians should even attempt to do this." [And he is someone who remains infuriatingly objective to a fault sometimes.] "Ah, what a relief," I thought... "at least a little common sense. However, as you go on, the next few sentences seem to assert that the fact that you are doing it (e.g. considering the feelings of unbelievers on the matter) means you are mature.
Members demonstrate incredible spiritual maturity when they are considerate of the needs, fears, and hang-ups of unbelievers..." [emphasis mine] Well. .. which one is it?
He also spends a lot of time explicitly or implicitly emphasizing numbers as an indicator of growth -- and then occasionally paying very brief lip service to the fact that numbers really don't necessarily mean anything substantial is happening. In fact the Bible tells us that few will find the Narrow road. The whole book is riddled with unscriptural double-standards which makes it easy for someone (a pastor, council member, elder, music director, etc) with an agenda to pick and choose things that justify that agenda. No wonder the book is selling like hot cakes! In that case it's very little more than an ego stroker!}
I agree. But that isn't what he was doing. I am not toying with them either. I am accusing them of betraying the faith.
The 'Accuser of the Bretheren' does the same thing. I'm sure he appreciates the help.
I really doubt this is a valid concern regarding his health
moreso it appears an allusion to his mental condition as you wax hysterically about Warren and PDL
Raise the bar and people might start to take you credibly - because right now - "theyre all laughing at you"
dear brother quix,
pardon me for slow processing, or if i am about to be redundant, but for the sake of argument, if you will, i noticed 2 things which you have written several times and i have their contradiction....
1. you assert that because rick warren uses many Scriptures, and you call them 'Good',that all his writings are valid... i point out that we both know that all Scripture is GOD breathed and useful for our instruction, correction, etc.......and we both know that just because someone 'uses' Scripture, doesn't mean a thing, because in an extreme example, so did the devil...not to make a comparison.
2. you indicate on several posts that..." the nay-sayers are never on God's side...'.....but i would point out Israel being told 'no' by the prophets of the Old Testament, and admonition by Jesus, who also reminded israel of what they did to the prophets, and of Stephen, and on and on, of people who were viewed as nay-sayers....they obviously were on the side of God....so, i think that of all the pertinent things you have to say, these aren't among them. pardon me if this has already been discussed, and be advised that i like to look at logic of arguments which may or may not advance a discussion...thank you
Did Jesus give us any kind of mission at all?
Replace "mission" with "purpose" and the naysayers will be all over you!
If Jesus gave us any kind of mission at all, then the rest is obvious. :>)
and I think thats a key point - because from this side of the aisle - it always seems like the folks riding the PDL pony, or warren himself are the same crowd that crows loudly about the "heretical" NIV, or the superiority of the KJV or those terrible Finneyesque Arminians.
Whats ignored though is the fact that alot of people who have picked up the book, have never had an experience with organized religion, or if they have - it has been negative, or at the worst - non existent.
Dont feed the baby chili ! - that where PDL fits in - and the naysayers seem to forget that everyone - themselves included - started off with milk
I think its great these same folks get all wound up - theyre passionate - but its misplaced in this instance - because this generation - perhaps more than any other in recent history - has grown into adulthood where the Church comes from a position, not of authority (as in decades past) - but rather a place where Ned Flanders goes on a Sunday - when the rest of us are out nursing hangovers or riding the Cyclone at Coney Island
For Heavens sake - weve got brand new Christians in our hands - and while we should all have our face planted in Scripture - do we give them PDL, or the Institutes?
We had a young unchurched couple come in the other day - they honestly asked who came first - Mary and Joeseph or Adam and Eve -
Were nurturing Spiritual "children" of sorts - let them grow into steak and potatos
and to that end - PDL is a start - because it gets them thinking
I don't toy with the devil ~ I just kick him the arse!
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