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To: Diva
I thought the explanation was pretty clear, co/cum means "with" not on an equal footing but in a subordinate fashion

No. "Cum" has no implication of a subordinate position. If I'm "with you", we're together, shoulder to shoulder.

Anyway, the vast majority of Catholics are not aware of the nuances of Latin roots of words. Defining this doctrine will elevate Mary to a "co-equal" status with Her Son in the minds of the Catholics, and all Protestants.

"Co-Redemptrix" is simply not going to work. We'll have to come up with some other English description for this doctrine.

15 posted on 07/25/2004 7:38:55 AM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: sinkspur

I was under the impression that the co-redemptrix issue had already been dealt with by the Vatican; that it was deemed theologically correct, but that it was left unapproved because of several concerns, a number of them ecumenical. In a perfect world, we would call Queen Mary co-redemptrix; we could shout it from the rooftops. Unfortunately, people are uneducated, and the Vatican has to think of them and how this would effect their faith.


16 posted on 07/25/2004 11:39:59 AM PDT by Lilllabettt
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To: sinkspur
No. "Cum" has no implication of a subordinate position. If I'm "with you", we're together, shoulder to shoulder.

Any implications inherent in the term was not my point. The fact that the prefix “co” does NOT imply equality is all that has to be stressed. Simply put Protestants who are ignorant enough to accuse Catholics of implying Mary's role as redemtrix as equal to her son's in Catholic theology are creating a circular argument. In actuality the prefix “co”, ONLY connects her act with Jesus' redemptive act. But, the Protestants, in truth probably already believe Catholics worship Mary and nothing we say will change their minds. Coredemtrix in and of itself does NOT imply equality and unless you want to be as uncharitable as certain Protestants we must assume that the theology places her in a subordinate position, otherwise you're assuming a contradiction in Catholic theology to begin with. Suffice it to say, educated Catholics should not take into consideration ignorant Protestants in defining their theology. The answers are easy to find if they are willing to look it up. As for ignorant Catholics, I'm half as likely to believe that they are not serious in their faith in the legitimacy of the Church anyway. But, in all fairness they should just be getting better Catechism and we shouldn't run from legitimate titles just because we might be forced to explain and thus catechize them.

23 posted on 07/25/2004 2:30:17 PM PDT by Diva
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To: sinkspur; Diva
No. "Cum" has no implication of a subordinate position. If I'm "with you", we're together, shoulder to shoulder.

Not necessarily. Take co-worker for example. Though it can imply workers of the same status, it generally means a group of people working together to accomplish a specific goal. A great example is that Priests are co-workers of their Bishops. Priests are not Bishops, but are subordinate to them, yet both Bishops and Priests are working together, shoulder to shoulder to accomplish the same goal.

Defining this doctrine will elevate Mary to a "co-equal" status with Her Son in the minds of the Catholics, and all Protestants.

No. Defining this doctrine will "put Mary in her place" so to speak. The purpose of defining anything is to give it specific meaning.

Catholics will understand the doctrine with proper catechesis. It will take however, (this is not a personal slam against you, but a general comment) clergy who are willing to teach that "co" means "cooperate with" rather that "equal to".

It has been my experience with many Protestants that when a doctrine is explained to them, they come away with a better sense of what it means. They may still not agree with it, but they have a better understanding. Again, there has got to be better catechesis of the Catholic faithful so that this doctrine, (and many others) can be properly explained.

"Co-Redemptrix" is simply not going to work. We'll have to come up with some other English description for this doctrine.

Actually, "Co-Redemptrix" is perfect. What is often forgotten in these discussions is that the suffix "trix" implies subordination. (Yes, it's the feminine ending and must be used since Mary is feminine, but it still implies subordination.) The suffix actually defines the prefix. If "Co" meant "co-equal" then we would have a subordinate who is equal to the superior. This of course makes no sense. Thus, "Co" must mean "cooperates with" as a subordinate can "cooperate with" a superior. (Very much like the example of co-worker above)

Also, due to the above, "Co-Redemptrix" is a much better title, than the strictly literal English translation of "Co-Reedemer", which is sometimes used. That word does imply equal status and should never be used. However, "Co-Redemptrix" is the perfect word because it does express the doctrine perfectly. But again, it will take proper catechesis, including the nuances of the title, for a correct understanding of the doctrine.

34 posted on 07/25/2004 7:57:28 PM PDT by pipeorganman
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