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To: PetroniusMaximus; drstevej; pegleg
***Roman Catholics take Jesus at His word: the bread is his body; the wine is his blood.***

Do you also believe Jesus is literally and physically a "door" or a "vine"?

"I am the bread of life." "I am the door" and "I am the vine" make sense as metaphors because Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him—and he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him. But Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).

He continues: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me" (John 6:57). The Greek word used for "eats" (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of "chewing" or "gnawing." This is not the language of metaphor.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" (1 Cor. 10:16). So when we receive Communion, we actually participate in the body and blood of Christ, not just eat symbols of them. Paul also said, "Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself" (1 Cor. 11:27, 29). "To answer for the body and blood" of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine "unworthily" be so serious? Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.

(And now I have brought St. Paul into the discussion, at the point where his comments confirm Christ's words to his disciples.)

100 posted on 07/15/2004 12:37:28 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: NYer; drstevej; pegleg
***"I am the bread of life." "I am the door" and "I am the vine" make sense as metaphors because Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him—and he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him.***

... and he is like our food and drink in that the believer's life is sustained through him.




***But Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).***

Actually it further confirms that it is metaphoric because of the use of the word "indeed" or often "real" which is a translation of the greek word "Alethos"

Alethos
Def: truly, of a truth, in reality, most certainly

The same word is used in the metaphorical passages you refered to. The word used there adjective form of the same exact word "Alethinos"

Alethinos
Def: that which has not o­nly the name and resemblance, but the real nature corresponding to the name, in every respect corresponding to the idea signified by the name, real, true genuine


See the following verses as an example of the metaphorical use of this word...

Joh 1:9    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Joh 6:32    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven

Joh 15:1    I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.




***The Greek word used for "eats" (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of "chewing" or "gnawing." This is not the language of metaphor.***


Not quite accurate for John uses no other word for "eating". I.E. It's his generic word for eating.

And along those lines...

Jesus said...
Joh 6:55    For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Which I would imagine you would take to be further confirmation of the literal nature of the reference. But Jesus used the same word in the following passages...

Joh 4:32    But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
Joh 6:27    Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Both are clearly metaphorical, or better "spiritual" references. Jesus' disciples are concerned that he had not bread - he tells them he has spiritual bread - unseen, untouchable but just as real.

Jesus tells his followers not to labor for physical bread which perishes (as I assume the host does) but for the eternal and spiritual bread which the Son of Man himself feeds his disciples.

I'll come back to your other points.


 

106 posted on 07/15/2004 3:38:38 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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