The Humanism of John Paul II

Daily Catholic ^ | October 18, 2002 | Mario Derksen

[ultima ratio]

"So this is, in many ways, a matter of taste."

No, it's a matter of the Pope speaking unclearly. We have minds designed to understand things. "Man is the primary way the Church must follow" makes no sense whatsoever. What or who is this abstraction "Man"? How are his multiple relations supposed to show the Church "the way"? And why is this so PRIMARY? I thought it was the other way around--that the Church was supposed to show all men the path to follow!

[saradippity]

The last chapter of John is quite interesting. After Christ tells Peter to feed His lambs and tend and feed His sheep,Christ tells Peter "Follow me>". Peter then turns around,points to John and says "what about him?".Jesus responds,"Don't worry about him,your business is to follow me".

Since He had given the keys to Peter,gave him authority,gave him direction,and promised to send the Paraclete,Comforter,Holy Ghost to remain with the Church,it seems that Pope John Paul is just exhorting man to do what he is doing which is following Christ.

I believe Christ is the Way,the Truth and the Life and necessary for all to get to heaven,I find nothing wrong with what the Pope is saying. Man should follow Peter,who follows Christ.The Church is the vehicle to get us to heaven,the door to the vehicle is Christ,the Pope follows Christ through the door and we should follow the Pope. Some get on and get off,some choose not to even get on board and others get on and try to push everyone else off,others just block the door.

#hen I asked you and Sinkspur for your vision of the Church the other day I really hoped you both would answer,I think the split in the Church is because of differing visions and I think talking about it would be a very good thing. I am quite sure that I would disagree with both of your visions.

[Land of the Irish]

"Phenomenological performance art"

John Paul II, putting aside his dignity as the Vicar of Christ, welcomes with a theatrical gesture cheering fans at a youth event in Madison Square Garden on October 3, 1979.

[Lauren BaRecall]

Thanks very much for the ping. :o)

I must admit that I don't have the time to hack through the whole article, but I'm confident that I read enough to realize that the article is full of errors and misconceptions.

Mario Dirksen does not believe in the infallibility of Vatican II, or the validity of the Mass of Paul VI. His writing is not thoroughly reasoned, and is very emotional in nature. Particularly dangerous is his use of materials from a schismatic group (Society of St. Pius X), as a source for the development of some of his positions.

By the way, I think the major problem that some people have with the "New Mass," and with Vatican II, is the liberalism that ended up surrounding them. Unfortunately, many things from Vatican II were intentionally taken out of context and misused by libs to further their own agenda. I think it's important to see that neither the Mass, nor Vatican II generally, *gave* us liberalism, but rather, that liberalism hijacked them. We English speaking people were cheated by the ICEL (International Committee for English in the Liturgy - I've been following this fight for years!) translations of the Editio Typica of the Missale Romanum. When I hear the Latin directly translated into English, the current Mass is very beautiful, and the language is sacred. We have the libs amongst the American Bishops to thank for the watered down English version, as well as for innovations such as "Communion in the hand." We've *really* been ripped off!

I support the work of groups such as Adoramus, that have labored for years to obtain an accurate translation of the Mass for liturgical use. I also support Pope John Paul's promulgation of the right of the faithful to attend the Latin Tridentine Mass. I maintain that words such as "venial" and "mortal" lets a person know where they stand, as opposed to "lesser" and "greater." And it's a CHALLICE, not a cup, for heaven's sake!

Don't get me wrong, I'm on the right wing, but it's a right that's rightly balanced.

I also think that, among other things, Mario just doesn't get the truth that everything really *is* a mystery. He also doesn't understand doctrinal development. It's not *new* doctrine, but rather an understanding of a doctrine on a deeper level, or a particular aspect of it.

On a final note, Mario likes St. Thomas Aquinas, but he needs to realize that if there was no such thing as doctrinal development, Aquinas would have been branded as a heretic, rather than proclaimed a Doctor of the Church.

So much to say, and so little time....

[Lauren BaRecall]

Surely, this must be the "new springtime" we keep hearing about. The Church has so blossomed in this "springtime" that worry about heresy can be replaced by worry about environmental issues.

This is plain darn silly. In Genesis, God places Adam as the steward of creation. The Pope is well within the scope of his job description, when he reminds us of the responsibility we have in this regard.

[ultima ratio]

Christ told Peter to follow him, not to go his own way. It is not up to the Pope to invent new doctrines, which this pope is doing. As for your comment about "visions" for the Church, that is NewChurchSpeak. It's not for any Catholic to provide a "vision." It's not even for the pope.

[Lauren BaRecall]

I admit that I should look into her situation more deeply before passing any judgements, but I turned against her after hearing a program on EWTN with Alice von Hildebrand in which she made Stein into the patron saint of feminism.

Alice von Hildebrand is also worth studying. She and her husband, Deitrich, are famous for their insights regarding Catholic theology on marriage.

She is the farthest thing from liberal feminism - as far as the east is from the west.

[ultima ratio]

If you think that Vatican II was infallible, you are wrong. If you think the only reason to oppose the Novus Ordo is on the grounds of its invalidity, you are wrong. If you think the SSPX is schismatic, you are also wrong.

[ultima ratio]

No, what's silly is your comment.

[mattcabbott]

I concur with your assessment!

[Lauren BaRecall]

The way things are, it is a fait accompli, making it appear as if it is being done with the blessing of heaven, unlike some other occurrences which the church did put a stop to, or tried to curtail, like Necedah and Bayside.

I've done a fair amount of reading about the Vatican vis a vis apparitions. I was trying to get to the bottom of the Church's position on Medjugorie. I've never had the least hesitancy about believing in Lourdes, Fatima, and even lesser known ones like Knock. I never believed in Medjugore, and its disciples' main argument was that the Vatican had not yet ruled on it.

I searched and searched. Finally, I found out that the local Bishop makes the proclamation. Then, I read through a big fat book about St. Bernadette, and there it was confirmed for me that the Vatican doesn't make the ruling, the local Bishop does. So, that's the rule of thumb - if the local Bishop says no, then it's no. Yes, then it's yes. The Bishop of Medjugorie, a very holy man, said there was nothing happening there, and the whole Bishops Conference of (what country? Croatia?) even joined him, although it wasn't necessary. The Bishop/s thought that to turn away the crowds would be to spur them on, but they tried to minimize the area as much as possible.

By the way, a friend of mine (since deceased) had been an avid charismatic, and Medjugorie believer. I told her that nothing was happening there. She went on pilgrimage with friends, and came back basically knowing that nothing was happening there.

[Lauren BaRecall]

Please. I remember when Archbishop Lefebre consecrated those bishops against the order of the Vicar of Christ.

I know I'm correct on all three items you mentioned.

[Lauren BaRecall]

Argue with the Book of Genesis.

[GirlShortstop]

Prove that your mother and dad were married.

I never claimed they were.

You bastard!   ...couldn't resist   ;-)

[Grey Ghost II]

I've never had the least hesitancy about believing in Lourdes, Fatima,

Well you must be lonely because the Pope and most of the bishops don't believe as evidenced by their refusal to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

[Land of the Irish]

You bastard! ...couldn't resist ;-)

I privately told Grey Ghost II, today, that one you modernists would vomit such an accusation. Thanks for proving my point.

[GirlShortstop]

So much to say, and so little time....

Don't be a stranger.  Quasi-lurkers like me appreciate you squeezing in posts like 124.  Pax et bonum!

[GirlShortstop]

I privately told Grey Ghost II, today, that one you modernists would vomit such an accusation. Thanks for proving my point.

You're welcome.  You've done a good deed as well by demonstrating [reminding readers] what a joke the humorless are.

[Land of the Irish]

You've done a good deed as well by demonstrating [reminding readers] what a joke the humorless you modernists are.

[Lauren BaRecall]

Well, they did, but I take it you take the opposite view.

And the Berlin wall is down.