Posted on 06/18/2004 12:26:59 PM PDT by Tantumergo
Let the TLM flourish, then there will be two Churches. One for single soccer moms and their kids and old blue-headed women. The other for families(including men).
"Where's the punishment? Perhaps you can point it out - there's no "punishment" of the indult movement recorded in that article."
What article were you reading? The one I posted clearly shows a heavy-handed interference by the Vatican in the internal affairs of the Franternity, at the instigation of 16 rebel priests in France, who could not accept the results of the Fraternity's general election.
Having the gall the send their own letter to Rome behind their superiors' back, they got everything they wanted, and more:
A severe shake-up of the leadership of the Fraternity, the Vatican's abrupt cancellation of their general chapter, and the infamous Protocol 1411, which completely goes against the charism of the Fraternity and the reason for its existence, and leaves the door wide open for bishops to obligate FSSP priests in their dioceses to offer the Novus Ordo.
I'd call that punishment.
You've been a Catholic for what? The day before yesterday?
And now you're making distinctions about transubstantiation?
What do you mean?
I just love fishing for flounder.
;-}
You've found the right fishing hole.
That's against canon law. Cardinal Hoyos says in his letter to the General Chapter:
On the other hand, it is clear that no priest is obliged to make use of this right. In this way, an atmosphere of freedom and trust can arise in this area, which stands in opposition to every exclusivity and every liturgical extremism. The "Fraternity of St. Peter", as its name already says, can only be a family of brethren, who mutually accept each other with fraternal love, and who are united wholly into the great family of the Roman Catholic Church, where there is a legitimate place for Catholics with a traditional sensibility, which I will defend with all my power.
"Anyone to the left of Tomas Torquemada is a liberal around this place."
How would you know? You can't see over Weakland's shoulder to see what might be over there to the right.
I also believe the recent canonizations are suspect. But I have never read this by Williamson, so I'm glad to see it. Have you a source for this? And I totally agree with Fr. Scott about the Pope's protestantization of the Rosary--designed to once again trash a Catholic devotion. I also agree the Pope has been at the very least a material heretic at Assisi I and II--though this would not make him illegitimate since his heresies have been accepted by the hierarchy itself. I also agree that it is the traditional movement that embodies the Catholic faith in the present crisis--not the conciliar Church's form of bogus Catholicism. At the present time the Apostolic See is not fully Catholic, having in its midst a coterie of public apostates. This pope does not seem to mind the situation. That makes him suspect, in my opinion.
The SSPX has never rejected this Pontiff--never. It was he who was all too eager to pretend it did. Had he investigated his own canon laws fairly and objectively, he would have recognized the right of the bishops and Archbishop to disobey under the circumstances. It was rejecting his aggressive policies of crushing traditional Catholicism any way he could. He is still doing this. Disobedience was therefore legitimate on the Society's part. It has never been a doctrine of the Church that any Catholic must obey a Pope who intends to harm the Church. And if you don't think this Pontiff is harming the Church--take another look at his record--which was already pretty damaging to his reputation even back then.
As for this comment by you: "In case you haven't noticed, the 1962 Missal is a 'special charism' in the Catholic Church today"--here is the answer you deserve: that is so much b.s. A tradition is whatever has been handed-down. These priests only think and pray and act and teach what they have been given from the Church itself. The conciliar Church and this Pope HAVE NO OTHER TRADITION. THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION IN THE WEST OTHER THAN THE ONE THESE PRIESTS OBSERVE. If theirs is not the Pope's tradition--then HE HAS NONE. Because the Novus Ordo is not a tradition. Kissing Korans is not a tradition. Praying in synagogues is not a tradition. Hugging Buddhists is not a tradition. Canonizing saints by the cartload is not a tradition. Elevating heretics is not a tradition. The only tradition the Church ever had before Vatican II was that which is practiced by those traditional Catholic priests today--and it is the Pope's tradition as well as theirs.
You have no idea how dumb this sounds. If priests before VII knew nothing else, they knew their Latin. The usual preparation for the priesthood included years and years of Latin courses. The words used in the ancient text, moreover, are common enought for even a dunce to understand. The Confiteor is mastered by small altar boys routinely. And this idea you have that since some priests said the Mass rapidly, this meant a lack of comprehension is another dumb idea. The brain is always quicker than the tongue.
"There were bishops who did not attend Vatican II because they couldn't understand what was being said. It was conducted, as you know, in Latin."
This is an altogether different capability. Colloquial Latin requires a different mode of recognizing meanings. A familiar liturgical text would have been mastered easily, especially since it loomed so importantly in priestly lives. Heck, many ordinary Catholics who never took a course in high school Latin routinely learned to recite the Pater Noster and the Salve Regina and the Ave Maria without any difficulty. Even when I write these titles down--most people know immediately what prayers I am referring to.
"would have been mastered easily, especially since it loomed so importantly in priestly lives. Heck, many ordinary Catholics who never took a course in high school Latin routinely learned to recite the Pater Noster and the Salve Regina and the Ave Maria without any difficulty."
Yo!
Every day. Except when I fall into the sin of sloth.
This is more bull. I know the situation well. The FSSP are being strong-armed to concelebrate--"to show unity with their fellow priests" in the Novus Ordo. In other words, they are being forced to accept the Novus Ordo--which most feel is deleterious to the faith, just as the Archbishop said. Now they are caught in a bind. They felt they had an agreement with Rome. It was the reason they accepted the Pope's offer. But no sooner had they expanded and achieved a great success than Rome came down on them like a ton of bricks. They were NOT SUPPOSED TO SUCCEED!
This was precisely the sort of maneuver the Archbishop suspected might happen. He mistrusted Rome--since he knew it has never disguised its intention to kill the traditional Mass. There is no interest in the Tridentine on the part of this Pope, none whatsoever. He couldn't care less if it achieves success. He wants a different Church--one that precludes co-existence with Tradition. For a modernist--as for a traditionalist--the two versions of Catholicism are incompatible. One is ancient and traditional and believes itself to be the one true faith, the other is newly invented and has as its lodestar an ecumenical "unity in diversity." The two can never be reconciled. They are different religions.
ping.
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