Posted on 06/10/2004 12:25:02 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena
I'm not religious, just reporting what I saw.
That's RnMomof7? I thought that was Havoc.
Hear hear!
No, Scripture does not say verbatim we must "accept Jesus as Lord of our life", but certainly the totality of Scripture teaches that theme- do you believe otherwise? Do I really need to quote Scripture supporting that?
Scripture does not contain the word Trinity. Do you believe in that concept?
I think there is some confusion here (understatement of the day). Here is my understanding [by no means do I claim to be giving the official teaching of the Catholic Church, and I would submit my opinion to the Magesterium if it is wrong].
Christ did die for our sins. He earned infinite grace, which he provides freely to us sinners here below. But, we have to comply with the grace to receive it. That is, we are free to accept or reject it. When we sin, we are rejecting God's grace. When we act in conformity to the will of God, we become a "channel" for that grace, so to speak, and because God loves us and wants us to be happy with him in heaven, He will continue to provide more and more grace to the soul who does not impede this.
One way to act in conformity with the will of God is to unite our suffering to Him instead of complaining or being bitter. When we suffer well and offer this to God as our minor "participation" in His suffering on the cross, we are given more grace, because we are acting in conformity with the will of God. Another way is through prayer, where we unite our heart and mind to God, and He pours out grace to that soul for conforming with His will.
As I stated above, when we sin we reject God's grace. It leaves a "blemish" on our soul, so to speak. These blemishes can be washed clean by the grace of God, which can be "earned" simply by complying with the grace that God is freely giving.
To enter into heaven a soul must be in a state of perfection. That is, none of these blemishes from sin can remain. Therefore the soul enters Purgatory, where the suffering soul complies with the grace of God until it has received sufficient grace to be in a state of perfection.
I don't believe it has ever been declared what sort of "suffering" the souls in Purgatory undergo. Some hold that it is simply a loss of the beatific vision, some hold that it is somewhat similar to the fires of hell. One of the more widely held beliefs is that it is catered to the sorts of sins which were not overcome while on earth. Those of a more serious nature are going to be given a more serious purgation.
Now, how this all fits to praying for the souls in Purgatory. I can offer prayers to God, and ask that He bestow the grace which I would receive to the soul(s) in Purgatory. If that is in conformity with His will, He will do so, and the amount of "suffering" a soul will have to do will be lessened, because I am channeling my grace to that soul.
Thus, your statement that the "debt must be paid in full by the individual", I would have to say is incorrect. The debt is paid by the grace freely given by God, but if we don't allow Him to pay the whole thing by not conforming to His will while on earth, then the debt remains outstanding until we do accept that grace.
Interesting, I have never heard that explanation before. I think I would have to disagree with it, but by no means am I an authority (obviously).
I would agree with your assessment of my explanation- it wouldn't stand up to Aquinas. I only wish I understood what he thought on the subject (and all others for that matter). Perhaps with more time and a lot more reading. . .
I have looked a little further into this (with help from Denzinger), and I think my understanding doesn't hold water in several of its points.
This is quite a complex topic, though, so I am not even going to try to correct it. I'll leave that one to one of the more qualified of the catholics on here.
It would probably be best to simply disregard the above post (67).
Show me where that is in the NT
The Blood of Christ does not free you from eternal punishment , but the intervention of some saint does.
Ah ah, there you go, changing the subject. We are talking about temporal punishment remitted in the next life, not eternal punishment. And do you not think it just to be purified of your past offences before entering the Holiest of Holies?
You are talking about God demanding a double payment , once paid for by Christ , not being paid for by your own "suffering" ...His sacrifice is moot.You do not even need Him under this theology .
Seems to me your "sacrament" of confession is pretty useless.
Suffer a little and then you have earned heaven.
As opposed to "being saved" and living a life as you please and earning heaven? And who said that "suffering a little" is all that is necessary to merit Heaven? You must take up your cross and follow Him to become partakers of eternal life
What a foolish slander on the holy Protestants I know. To be honest I see more carnality in the Catholics I know . When you believe that someone can pray for you and get you good time out of purgatory , why bother to live holy lives?
Salvation is a work of God from beginning to end. If one is guilty of antinominism I question his salvation.
The Bible teaches that we are to "confess our sins one to another" (James 5:16); it never mentions confession to a priest. The reason why Protestants "confess their sins one to another" and not to a priest, has nothing to do with the issues of forgiveness of sins but rather individual reconciliation among true believers in Christ. In fact, there is no reason to confess our sins to a priest if Christ’s death on the cross has already paid their full divine penalty.
Still waiting for you to produce historical evidence from the first 500 years of Christianity for the non-existence of Purgatory, but nice dodge into the Sacrament of Confession.
This should explain my position a little more clearly, and I wish I had said it this way in the first place to avoid confusion.
I believe that in Purgatory the souls suffer at least two types of punishment. One is the fire, or purification. The other is the loss of the Beatific Vision, or being seperated from God. It's been written (though I don't know how it would be known) that the second is worse than the first.
After the purification, the seperation still remains as part of the suffering. It is in this state, I believe, that our prayers can effect the length of stay of those in Purgatory.
It is while in this state that our Blessed Virgin can appeal to Her Son for our release, as she promised.
It is in this state of untold suffering that protestants languish because of their lack of belief, and because they have nobody to pray for them. They may remain there till the end of time, that's how powerful prayer is.
Here is a portion of the Catholic doctrine, including a few thoughts on the subject by Aquinas.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
I don't think it contains exactly my position, but only portions of it, which would help it make more sense, as well as explain the promises of Our Lady, through the Immaculate Heart, and the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
Are you assuming the protestants got there through invincible ignorance? Because their religion sure didn't help any.
"Are you assuming the protestants got there through invincible ignorance?"
That is a good question. I think it was a poor choice of words on my part.
"languish because of lack of belief" supposes that I know how they got there, and that was not part of what I was trying to communicate. Why they would remain there is the focus.
The "lack of belief" on the part of their family, friends, and theology assures that no one will pray for them, and that is how I should have said it.
Your link gives a very clear view of Purgatory that even a non Catholic can understand. Thanks.
the repentant thief on the cross (and Christ) might argue the point - no time for works, but he was saved none the less
So are you meaning by quoting the above verse that Purgatory is the judgement seat of Christ? As a Protestant, I have to say that at least in the Churches I have attended, this verse is quoted often.
It's not likely that Jesus would live in Purgatory, any more than He would live in Hades. And I don't think that pasage even hints at it, unless you see a nuance that I didn't notice.
It is my understanding that souls would be banished TO Purgatory, rather than FROM Purgatory.
There are so many passages in the OT and the NT that hint at Purgatory, that I can't even undestand why any controversy.
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