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To: sinkspur

"Did the Lord turn His back on His apostles at the Last Supper?"

That is a loaded misrepresentation of the ad orientem stance!

Our Lord would have sat on THE SAME SIDE of the table (which was probably 'U'-shaped) as the the apsotles. The other side of the table would have been left free for the servants to bring the provisions to table.

The ad orientem celebration of Mass simply has the priest on the same side of the altar as the congregation - as it should be. The versus populum position has the priest standing on the other side of the altar as though he is some kind of demi-god.

"If we are "doing this in Memory of Me," it makes sense to gather in the faithful, as Jesus did."

Quite! - standing on the same side of the "table" as His apostles.

"In fact, if you know how the Eucharist was celebrated in the Early Church, you know that it was not done in imitation of Melchisedech."

And how do you jump to that conclusion? The very name "Eucharist" implies that it was done precisely in the manner of Melchisedech. The sacrifice of bread and wine which he offered was the Jewish "Todah" sacrifice, and the Passover itself is a modified form of Todah.

Todah means "Thanksgiving", which is why the Christian sacrifice was given the name "Eucharist" from the Greek "evkaristo" which also means "Thanksgiving". In fact the ancient rabbi's had an oral prophetic tradition that the Messianic age would be followed by the "last days" when only the Todah sacrifice would remain.

All archeological discoveries of early Christian churches show an east-west orientation that was simply carried over from the tradition of Temple and Synagogue.

"With all due respect, those who prefer the current manner of celebration are not, by that preference, "malformed in the faith.""

With all due respect I would suggest that they are ignorant of Scripture and Traditition, and do not know why worship has ALWAYS taken place with an Eastward orientation.

From the first pages of the bible God enters the Garden (sanctuary) from the east of Eden (temple). The tabernacle is erected with an Eastward orientation, the Temple is erected with an Eastward orientation, the Messiah enters the Temple from the East, and He also promises that He will return as lighting FROM THE EAST TO THE WEST.

The whole eschatological focus of the Mass for 1,900+ years had been oriented to the return of the Lord - heck in the new Mass we even say "Christ will come again" - but for some stupid unbiblical reason it was changed in 1970 because people didn't even know why it was the way it was! They just changed it because it made them "feel better"!!!

Judaeo-Christian sacrifice has never been offered "versus populum". Even those Roman basilica's whose geological topography prevented the traditional orientation, used to have the deacon's proclaim "All turn to the East" prior to the Canon of the Mass so that for the Eucharistic prayer, the congregation stood with their backs to the priest.

The change of orientation has destroyed our theological cosmology, our eschatology, and our liturgical theology. This is why even Ratzinger bemoans the "community turned in on itself which worships itself" rather than being oriented toward God.

"You know the Didache, do you not?"

I do indeed. I also know that it is hotly disputed by scholars whether this is a Christian or an early gnostic text.


110 posted on 06/04/2004 7:42:30 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo
The change of orientation has destroyed our theological cosmology, our eschatology, and our liturgical theology.

As Thomas More said in "A Man for All Seasons":

Surely it's not as bad as all that!

115 posted on 06/04/2004 7:51:30 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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