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To: sandyeggo
How would you reconcile that statement with the following one?

There were many practices being brought into the early church that were unscriptural. The apostles spoke of many of these. John often spoke against the gnostics and Paul had his well known troubles with the Judiazing teachers and with pagan influences affecting the churches. Simply because some churches or writers made claims to be authoritative didn't make it so. Just because they may have been practiced somewhere did not make them scriptural. Should we embrace gnosticism today?

108 posted on 05/27/2004 12:44:00 PM PDT by asformeandformyhouse (Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular.)
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To: asformeandformyhouse
On the subject of St. John and bishops:

1 At that time the apostle and evangelist John, the one whom Jesus loved, was still living in Asia, and governing the churches of that region, having returned after the death of Domitian from his exile on the island.178

2 And that he was still alive at that time179 may be established by the testimony of two witnesses. They should be trustworthy who have maintained the orthodoxy of the Church; and such indeed were Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria.180

3 The former in the second book of his work Against Heresies, writes as follows:181 "And all the elders that associated with John the disciple of the Lord in Asia bear witness that John delivered it to them. For he remained among them until the time of Trajan."182

4 And in the third book of the same work he attests the same thing in the following words:183 "But the church in Ephesus also, which was founded by Paul, and where John remained until the time of Trajan, is a faithful witness of the apostolic tradition."

5 Clement likewise in his book entitled What Rich Man can be saved?184 indicates the time,185 and subjoins a narrative which is most attractive to those that enjoy hearing what is beautiful and profitable. Take and read the account which rums as follows:186 "Listen to a tale, which is not a mere tale, but a narrative187 concerning John the apostle, which has been handed down and treasured up in memory. For when, after the tyrant's death,188 he returned from the isle of Patmos to Ephesus, he went away upon their invitation to the neighboring territories of the Gentiles, to appoint bishops in some places, in other places to set in order whole churches, elsewhere to choose to the ministry some one189 of those that were pointed out by the Spirit.

7 When he had come to one of the cities not far away (the name of which is given by some190 ), and had consoled the brethren in other matters, he finally turned to the bishop that had been appointed, and seeing a youth of powerful physique, of pleasing appearance, and of ardent temperament, he said, `This one I commit to thee in all earnestness in the presence of the Church and with Christ as witness.' And when the bishop had accepted the Charge and had promised all, he repeated the same injunction with an appeal to the same witnesses, and then departed for Ephesus.

8 But the presbyter191 taking home the youth committed to him, reared, kept, cherished, and finally baptized192 him. After this he relaxed his stricter care and watchfulness, with the idea that in putting upon him the seal of the Lord193 he had given him a perfect protection.

9 But some youths of his own age, idle and dissolute, and accustomed to evil practices, corrupted him when he was thus prematurely freed from restraint. At first they enticed him by costly entertainments; then, when they went forth at night for robbery, they took him with them, and finally they demanded that he should unite with them in some greater crime.

10 He gradually became accustomed to such practices, and on account of the positiveness of his character,194 leaving the right path, and taking the bit in his teeth like a hard-mouthed and powerful horse, he rushed the more violently down into the depths.

11 And finally despairing of salvation in God, he no longer meditated what was insignificant, but having committed some great crime, since he was now lost once for all, he expected to suffer a like fate with the rest. Taking them, therefore, and forming a band of robbers, he became a bold bandit-chief, the most violent, most bloody, most cruel of them all.

12 Time passed, and some necessity having arisen, they sent for John. But he, when he had set in order the other matters on account of which he had come, said, `Come, O bishop, restore us the deposit which both I and Christ committed to thee, the church, over which thou presidest, being witness.'

13 But the bishop was at first confounded, thinking that he was falsely charged in regard to money which he had not received, and he could neither believe the accusation respecting what he had not, nor could he disbelieve John. But when he said, `I demand the young man and the soul of the brother,' the old man, groaning deeply and at the same time bursting into tears, said, `He is dead.' `How and what kind of death?' `He is dead to God,' he said; `for he turned wicked and abandoned, and at last a robber. And now, instead of the church, he haunts the mountain with a band like himself.'

14 But the Apostle rent his clothes, and beating his head with great lamentation, he said, `A fine guard I left for a brother's soul! But let a horse be brought me, and let some one show me the way.' He rode away from the church just as he was, and coming to the place, he was taken prisoner by the robbers' outpost.

15 He, however, neither fled nor made entreaty, but cried out, `For this did I come; lead me to your captain.'

16 The latter, meanwhile, was waiting, armed as he was. But when he recognized John approaching, he turned in shame to flee.

17 But John, forgetting his age, pursued him with all his might, crying out, `Why, my son, dost thou flee from me, thine own father, unarmed, aged? Pity me, my son; fear not; thou hast still hope of life. I will give account to Christ for thee. If need be, I will willingly endure thy death as the Lord suffered death for us. For thee will I give up my life. Stand, believe; Christ hath sent me.'

18 And he, when he heard, first stopped and looked down; then he threw away his arms, and then trembled and wept bitterly. And when the old man approached, he embraced him, making confession with lamentations as he was able, baptizing himself a second time with tears, and concealing only his right hand.

19 But John, pledging himself, and assuring him on oath that he would find forgiveness with the Saviour, besought him, fell upon his knees, kissed his right hand itself as if now purified by repentance, and led him back to the church. And making intercession for him with copious prayers, and struggling together with him in continual fastings, and subduing his mind by various utterances, he did not depart, as they say, until he had restored him to the church, furnishing a great example of true repentance and a great proof of regeneration, a trophy of a visible resurrection." (Eusebius of Caesarea, "Ecclesiastical History" III, XXIII)

Clearly here the presbyter-bishop has been charged with control over the church: "When he had come to one of the cities not far away ... he finally turned to the bishop that had been appointed ..."

The seven angels of the churches which St. John addresses in his Revelation would seem to be bishops as well - this is compatible with the fact that only 10 years after St. John's death we have clear testimonies of the existence of a separate episcopate from St. Ignatius.

Also, St. Hegesippus in his Chronicles [180 AD] reports that there was a succession of bishops in Rome - this catalogue was used by various later writers (cf. Catholic Encyclopedia, "St. Hegesippus") and clearly indicates the existence of the episcopate in Apostolic times, while St. John still lived in Ephesus. He also records this (an account which he was well-placed to know as he was a Hebrew):

And after James the Just had suffered martyrdom, as the Lord had also on the same account, Symeon, the son of the Lord's uncle, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop. All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord. Therefore, they called the Church a virgin, for it was not yet corrupted by vain discourses. (quoted in Eusebius, ibid., IV, XXII)

177 posted on 05/27/2004 2:33:33 PM PDT by gbcdoj (in mundo pressuram habetis, sed confidite, ego vici mundum)
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