Daily Reflections with Oswald Chambers [May 27, 2004]

Come to these threads as you are; leave with what you have discovered.

Absolutely no flaming! These daily threads are intended to be devotional in nature. If a particular day's offering says nothing to you, please just go on and wait for the next day. Consider these threads a DMZ of sorts, a place where a perpetual truce is in effect and a place where all other arguments and disagreements from other times and places are left behind.

I can attest from personal experience that reading from Chambers daily will almost certainly change - not one's faith - but one's perspective of his/her own faith, and open up new vistas in your spiritual life. If - when - this happens to a reader of these threads, and they choose to share what has happened within them - we are treading on hallowed ground. Be respectful.

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What a beautiful devotion!

Ronzo posted a discussion thread over here on the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit. I'm cross-linking the two articles to encourage discussion.

Thank you so much for the ping Alamo-Girl!

In this particular devotion of Chambers, I find things that I strongly agree with, and things I strongly disagree with, in the way he characterizes the person of the Holy Spirit. There are some points where he seems to be engaging in sanctified rationalization rather than accurately portraying biblical truths.

For purposes of further discussion, I will point out those things that I agree with and disagree with.

The disciples had to tarry, staying in Jerusalem until the day of Pentecost, not only for their own preparation but because they had to wait until the Lord was actually glorified. And as soon as He was glorified, what happened? "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear" (Acts 2:33). The statement in John 7:39 - "...for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" - does not pertain to us. The Holy Spirit has been given; the Lord is glorified - our waiting is not dependent on the providence of God, but on our own spiritual fitness.

Very true--to a point. It depends on how you define "spiritual fitness." If we take that phrase to mean a hunger for the things of God, then I would agree fully with Oswald's statement.

The Holy Spirit's influence and power were at work before Pentecost, but He was not here. Once our Lord was glorified in His ascension, the Holy Spirit came into the world, and He has been here ever since. We have to receive the revealed truth that He is here.

I stongly disagree with these statements Oswald makes about the Holy Spirit. First of all, the Holy Spirit is sent to live within BELIEVERS, not "the world." That is a crucial distinction, and I think Oswald does us no favors by using the term "world." Very bad theology on his behalf.

Secondly, the Spirit was very much "here" before the Pentecost, and there's amble biblical support to prove He was, in fact "here." He was here in the person of Jesus, and was given to various patriarchs and prophets in the course of OT history. Also, there is no reason to believe that the Holy Spirit hasn't been at work in various ways throughout history, even working outside of the indwelling of believers.

The attitude of receiving and welcoming the Holy Spirit into our lives is to be the continual attitude of a believer. When we receive the Holy Spirit, we receive reviving life from our ascended Lord.

This is the best part of the devotional. I totally agree that we must continually be a welcoming place for the Holy Spirit to reside, and that He does His best work through those who are the most open to His ministry.

It is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit that changes people, but the power of the ascended Christ coming into their lives through the Holy Spirit. We all too often separate things that the New Testament never separates. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an experience apart from Jesus Christ - it is the evidence of the ascended Christ.

Well, in fact the NT does seperate these two things: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the ascended Christ. The only way they are connected is that Jesus had to ascend before the Holy Spirit was poured out on believers.

Secondly, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does, in fact, change people. The Holy Spirit is a person like Jesus is a person. The Holy Spirit bears witness to the life and ministry of Jesus, but is not, in any way, Jesus himself; unless you consider the fact that all three persons of the godhead are connected and work in unison.

Thirdly, it is not "the power of the ascended Christ" that comes into a person's life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but more simply the power of God. The ascension is just one of many examples of this power. Connecting the baptism of the Holy Spirt to the ascension of Christ only makes sense in terms of a linear progression: Christ had to ascend before the Spirit was poured out. One event had to proceed the other, but they are not the same thing. However, I will allow that metaphorically speaking, one could use the ascension of Christ as a poetic description of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and perhaps this is what Oswald is getting at.

Fourth, I don't know anyone who says or teaches that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an experience apart from that of Christ, ascended or not. Is it evidence of His ascension? Well, it wouldn't be wrong to say that, but it isn't the main reason why the Holy Spirit was given. The Holy Spirit was given to enable believers to walk in the boldness and power of Christ. Jesus went up to heaven, but through the ministry of the person of the Holy Spirit, there could now be hundreds, thousands, and even millions of little "Christs," going to places and lands that Jesus was not able to go to during his short visit here. Jesus got the ball rolling, but he fully inteneded that his ministry would continue through his disciples, and others that the initial disciples would train-up and equip.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not make you think of time or eternity - it is one amazing glorious now. "This is eternal life, that they may know You..." (John 17:3). Begin to know Him now, and never finish.

Well, this is a very interesting comment by Chambers. I agree that there is certainly a certain timelessness in the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, I would not go so far to say that the Holy Spirit "does not make you think of time or eternity." Rather, you get a whole new appreciation for both! You begin to understand just how very short our time is here on this earth, and how we must make the most of it. Secondly, you get a much greater appreciation for eternity, and just how long it will last! You get a new appreciation for both, thanks to the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

However, I do agree that you also get an appreciation for the NOW of the moment. You realize too how important the presence of God is, and how you can completely loose track of time when you are in His presence.

As for Chamber's statement: "Begin to know Him now, and never finish," I agree whole heartedly!!! It's excellent advice, and one that the church certainly could stand to hear at this time. I've been getting to know the Holy Spirit for nearly eighteen years now (and, by association, the Triune God), and I feel like I've bearly even gotten started! He's not a person you can figure out very quickly or easily. He moves in different ways and in different directions in the life of each believer. A really good leader understands this about the Spirit, and works in accordance with the movement of the Spirit, not against it.

Well, that's my humble take on this devotion! FWIW.

Thank you so much for your insightful analysis of the devotion and for your testimony!

I agree with you that this particular devotion takes some poetic license in dealing with the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit. It would take considerable ink to discuss Him at length. I was hoping that others would join in on your thread and contribute to betty boop's challenge from the previous thread. I hadn’t said anything on that thread yet because I already “spoke up” on the nature/nurture thread.

But now that you’ve mentioned a bit more here, I would like to add a few observations to the discussion here and will post these as well as my previous comments to your discussion thread. I hope you will post your comments here over there also so we can collect them in one place for easier discussion

First, here is what I posted on the nature/nurture thread:

Thank you so very much for the opportunity to speak a little of the Holy Spirit. How I love to talk about Him! IMHO, the best Scriptures to understand the Holy Spirit are the entire Gospel of John, Romans 8 and I Corinthians 2.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

The story of Nicodemus in John 3 is the example. He was a religious man, a ruler and a Pharisee, and approached Christ saying that He was special because of the miracles. Jesus, looking right into his heart knew what he really wanted to know and told him that “he must be born again” and proceeded to answer Nicodemus’ questions.

Then in John 15, Jesus describes the indwelling further explaining that He (Jesus) is the vine and we are the branches, that we can do nothing apart from Him. We must dwell in Him and He in us. At the end of that chapter and in the next, He explains that when He leaves to go to the Father, He will send the Comforter (Holy Spirit):

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: - John 15:26

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. – John 16:7

BTW, this is an example of the Trinity - God in three persons.

But of everything the Gospel of John has to say of the Holy Spirit and the mystery of the Trinity, the most overwhelming to me is in John 17 where Christ prays for us and explains the significance:

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:20-23

All of these passages are rich and should be read fully and in context. I do them a disservice by just making a few excerpts, but I didn’t wish to swamp the thread either.

In Paul’s testimony we can see the ministry of the indwelling Spirit:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – I Corinthians 2:9-16

All of this takes us full circle to Nicodemus – that a Christian must be born again:

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. – Romans 8:1-5

And here are a few new observations to go with your comments above and on the other thread:

When the person of the Holy Spirit is named as “Spirit” the word is capitalized both in the Old Testament and the New. References to the “Holy Ghost” are always capitalized. Likewise, the term “Comforter” is capitalized in the New Testament. But the name “Holy Spirit” is capitalized only in this passage which says that we may ask for the Holy Spirit and the Father will give Him to us:

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? - Luke 11:13

Conversely, it is possible to quench the Spirit:

Quench not the Spirit. – 1 Thessalonians 5:19

In these passages, the Spirit in heaven appears as seven fold:

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; - Revelation 1:4

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. – Revelation 3:1

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. – Revelation 4:7

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. – Revelation 5:6

I believe the above passages suggest (especially the last one) that God is One as described in John 17, that His persons include the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit but that there does not exist a “bright line” between them. We cannot tell where the Father ends and the Son begins because the Son is that fully surrendered to the Father. Likewise, we cannot tell where the Son ends and the Holy Spirit begins because the Holy Spirit is fully surrendered as well. And in all seven manifestations of the Spirit, we cannot tell where the one ends and the next begins.

An interesting discussion might be whether the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, is one of the seven or the sum.

As a sidebar comment, the term spirit (not capitalized) is also a name for ministering angels:

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. – Hebrews 1:6-8

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? - Hebrews 1:13-14

So we who are born again have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Holy Ghost as described throughout the Gospel of John (especially chapters 3, 15, 16, 17) Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 2 --- and we also have the help of ministering spirits. Only the Holy Spirit indwells.

A fine discussion on both threads! It is so good to see humble followers of the Master striving daily to take the Holy Spirit for their guide and do as Jesus taught!

In the Book of Mormon, the prophet Nephi spoke briefly with the Holy Spirit as a man speaks with another:

Nephi asks for the interpretation of his father's dream

Lorenzo Snow, who later became the fifth President of the LDS Church, relates his account of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as he experienced it: (emphasis mine)

I was baptized by Elder John Boynton, then one of the Twelve Apostles, June, 1836, in Kirtland, Ohio. Previous to accepting the ordinance of baptism, in my investigations of the principles taught by the Latter-day Saints, which I proved, by comparison, to be the same as those mentioned in the New Testament taught by Christ and His Apostles, I was thoroughly convinced that obedience to those principles would impart miraculous powers, manifestations and revelations. With sanguine expectation of this result, I received baptism and the ordinance of laying on of hands by one who professed to have divine authority; and, having thus yielded obedience to these ordinances, I was in constant expectation of the fulfilment of the promise of the reception of the Holy Ghost.

The manifestation did not immediately follow my baptism, as I had expected, but, although the time was deferred, when I did receive it, its realization was more perfect, tangible and miraculous than even my strongest hopes had led me to anticipate.

Some two or three weeks after I was baptized, one day while engaged in my studies, I began to reflect upon the fact that I had not obtained a knowledge of the truth of the work—that I had not realized the fulfilment of the promise "he that doeth my will shall know of the doctrine," and I began to feel very uneasy. I laid aside my books, left the house, and wandered around through the fields under the oppressive influence of a gloomy, disconsolate spirit, while an indescribable cloud of darkness seemed to envelop me. I had been accustomed, at the close of the day, to retire for secret prayer, to a grove a short distance from my lodgings, but at this time I felt no inclination to do so. The spirit of prayer had departed and the heavens seemed like brass over my head. At length, realizing that the usual time had come for secret prayer, I concluded I would not forego my evening service, and, as a matter of formality, knelt as I was in the habit of doing, and in my accustomed retired place, but not feeling as I was wont to feel.

I had no sooner opened my lips in an effort to pray, than I heard a sound, just above my head, like the rustling of silken robes, and immediately the Spirit of God descended upon me, completely enveloping my whole person, filling me, from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and O, the joy and happiness I felt! No language can describe the almost instantaneous transition from a dense cloud of mental and spiritual darkness into a refulgence of light and knowledge, as it was at that time imparted to my understanding. I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and of the restoration of the holy Priesthood, and the fulness of the Gospel. It was a complete baptism—a tangible immersion in the heavenly principle or element, the Holy Ghost; and even more real and physical in its effects upon every part of my system than the immersion by water; dispelling forever, so long as reason and memory last, all possibility of doubt or fear in relation to the fact handed down to us historically, that the "Babe of Bethlehem" is truly the Son of God; also the fact that He is now being revealed to the children of men, and communicating knowledge, the same as in the Apostolic times. I was perfectly satisfied, as well I might be, for my expectations were more than realized, I think I may safely say in an infinite degree.

I cannot tell how long I remained in the full flow of the blissful enjoyment and divine enlightenment, but it was several minutes before the celestial element which filled and surrounded me began gradually to withdraw. On arising from my kneeling posture, with my heart swelling with gratitude to God, beyond the power of expression, I felt—I knew that He had conferred on me what only an omnipotent being can confer—that which is of greater value than all the wealth and honors worlds can bestow. That night, as I retired to rest, the same wonderful manifestations were repeated, and continued to be for several successive nights. The sweet remembrance of those glorious experiences, from that time to the present, bring them fresh before me, imparting an inspiring influence which pervades my whole being, and I trust will to the close of my earthly existence.

Eliza R Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, pp 7-9

It is this power of conviction, this deep inner knowing imparted by the ministration of the Holy Spirit, that distinguished the apostles from the Day of Pentecost onward from those same men who forsook their Lord and fled after the events in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Jeremiah 31:33-34
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

A fine discussion on both threads! It is so good to see humble followers of the Master striving daily to take the Holy Spirit for their guide and do as Jesus taught! In the Book of Mormon, the prophet Nephi spoke briefly with the Holy Spirit as a man speaks with another

Doing you missionary work ?

Are all visions from God?

Thank you so very much for sharing with us the LDS Scriptures and theology concerning the Holy Spirit! And thank you for joining us in the discussion on the other thread.

It is certainly helpful to me to understand what you believe and why because you have embraced other texts which are not familiar to me.

Marmema, I'm pinging you to this thread - and to the other, discussion thread on the Holy Spirit if you would like to offer anything from the Orthodox point of view.

Thank you for the ping to your post!

I believe all of us who love God and are Christian ought to follow Paul's example at Athens (Acts 17) when obeying the Great Commission whether ministering to those who believe nothing or like Apollos, believed in part or in error (Acts 18).

At Athens, Paul addressed the Greeks in their own terms, understanding what they believed and reasoning with them.

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

So does it matter is the God that is one of many gods and that he has a body and wives, and that Jesus is a separate god ?

I just wonder where you draw the line? It is a matter of spiritual discernment and believing the creeds of the church are divinely inspired and true.

Another site I post on would not allow some one that did not accept the Christian definition of God as 3 persons in one being and that did not believe in the creed to post as Christians .

You know Alamo , just because some one has the name jesus in the church name does not mean it is the same jesus .

I always say , if you sleep in a garage and goo Beeb beeb , it does not mean you are a car.

Christianity has defined it official parameters. Polytheism is not considered a Christian concept ( or a Jewish one)

Discernment is everything

I believe all of us who love God and are Christian ought to follow Paul's example at Athens (Acts 17) when obeying the Great Commission whether ministering to those who believe nothing or like Apollos, believed in part or in error (Acts 18).

You wouldn't by any chance be speaking of the same Paul who also said:

9) But avoid foolish questins, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10) A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11) Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Titus 3:9-11 KJV

At Athens, Paul addressed the Greeks in their own terms, understanding what they believed and reasoning with them.

Would that be the same Paul who alsosaid:

And I, bretheren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech, or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2) For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3) And I was with you in weakness and in fear, and in much trembling.
4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
I Corinthians 2:1-3 KJV

You mean that Paul?

Thank you for your reply!

Another site I post on would not allow some one that did not accept the Christian definition of God as 3 persons in one being and that did not believe in the creed to post as Christians.

I hope this means only how one identifies himself and not that people who do not yet believe this are excluded from the discussion, otherwise the site is making no progress in spreading the Gospel. For instance, IMHO, the disciples who ventured beyond the Jewish communities accomplished more under the Great Commission than those who did not.

Discernment is everything.

Discernment is indeed very important, but I do not agree with the statement, i.e. that it is "everything".

Because He is Creator of the beginning, nothing can exist either spiritually or physically except by Him - thus, God is everything. Discernment is a spiritual gift.

Thank you for your reply and the passages!

You mean that Paul?

Indeed. I mean that very same Paul, who tailored his speech according to his audience.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? - 1 Corinthians 3:2-5

I hope this means only how one identifies himself and not that people who do not yet believe this are excluded from the discussion, otherwise the site is making no progress in spreading the Gospel. For instance, IMHO, the disciples who ventured beyond the Jewish communities accomplished more under the Great Commission than those who did not

No, those that are not Creedal professing Christians are not allowed to post in the Christian area. They are not Christians. They may read, but not share their atheism or heresies among the body of Christ.

Mat. 7-15, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

We are warned not to allow them to proselytize us

2 John 10-11 “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”

Jesus , Paul , and the disciples did not believe that meant allowing them to teach you , and then you thank them

Those that refuse to hear and that instead try to teach you , have not heard. What did Jesus say?

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

that very same Paul, who tailored his speech according to his audience...I have fed you with milk

FreeRepublic's Religion Forum is now a Milk Bar???

Thank you for your reply!

I truly understanding the doctrine of separation. We have an Amish community here that is the very embodiment of that doctrine. And I understand the Scriptural basis for doing it.

But taken to mean more than Spiritual separation, one could become a modern day Pharisee and thus run contrary to the Great Commission and also to the example set by Jesus:

And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw [it], they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. - Matthew 9:10-13

The subject of the following passage is not a variance of a Christian belief as existed among the apostles and the churches (Acts and Revelation) - but the spirit of anti-Christ.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. - 1 John 1:9-11

My two cents: we Christians are put in different fields and equipped by God for the task. Some are gifted to the body of Christ to minister to those who already believe or believe in part. Some are able to communicate with people of wrongful but well-intended theologies and philosophies. Others have the ability to understand and communicate with intellectual agnostics and atheists, perhaps even working in the "belly of the beast". But wherever He leads us and gifts us to attend, we must never be a party to spreading the doctrine of anti-Christ.

FreeRepublic's Religion Forum is now a Milk Bar???

LOLOL! Actually, that is a very informative link. I wasn't familiar with the term. Thank you!

But taken to mean more than Spiritual separation, one could become a modern day Pharisee and thus run contrary to the Great Commission and also to the example set by Jesus:
And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw [it], they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. - Matthew 9:10-13

If you fail to appreciate the difference between giving the gospel to sinners and allowing a cult to proselytize and I guess we are talking past each other .One of the major problems in the Christian church today is that the people of God do not know what God’s Word says. Because they don’t know what the Word truly says and because the Holy Spirit is not their teacher, but men are, they are exploited with deceptive works and follow their destructive ways. Yet Jesus told them clearly We have a responsibility not to Amen a false doctrine in any way , Our amen to them will never lead them to the gospel , it simply gives them standing and credibility in the church

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Matthew 7:13-21

Matthew 24: v 4-5 ( See also Luke 13: v5-6) The disciples asked for signs of when Christ would return. Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ', and will deceive many."

Jude Vs. 3-4 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude Vs. 3-4

1 Timothy 4:12 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."

Timothy 4:.3-4 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

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1John 2:18-27 Dear Children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us . For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist- he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Titus 1:11 - "They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach-- and that for the sake of dishonest gain."

1 John 4: v 1 - 3 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone into the world. This is how you can recognise the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge that Jesus is from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.