You have the honor of being my last post for the summer! I'm going to be very busy for the next three months, and will have to take a break from the Free Republic for a while...
I pinging Alamo-Girl & Thermopylae to this post, in case they have anything they would like to add or subtract! I'm also going to ping White Mountian in case he'd like to make any comments from an LDS point-of-view...(I don't believe that the Mormons have a doctrine of "once saved, only saved...")
For purposes of fairness, I want to state that I'm just a plain, boring Christian. I have no special place in my heart of Calvin, Aquinas, Arminius, or any other theologian. I do not favor any denomination over another. I am both Protestant and Catholic; Evangelical and Charismatic; Reformed and Counter-Reformed. But there is one thing I do favor in all these contexts: the Word of God. And I favor any modern English translation that does a halfway decent job translating, including the NASB, NIV, NRSV, NKJV, HCSB, NET, NJB, and a host of other initials. I even like "The Message." (As a matter of fact, as an old Navigator, I LOVE "The Message!")
Cvengr says:
Once a person has had faith in Christ, God makes them alive in spirit. That same spirit is eternal. Even if we choose later to reject Him, He remains faithful and we may never lose our salvation, not because of anything we do or think, but because of His faithfulness.Doctrine of eternal security enunciates this.
I understand that doctrine, Cvengr, but I do not put my faith in it. While scripture clearly tells us God knows who are his and who aren't, there is no way we can know this information unless we have access to the mind and foresight of God, which none of us do. Only he knows who will ultimately be saved and who won't.
I say that to make this point: the only assurance given in the Bible for a person's salvation is their demonstration of a persevering, overcoming faith. Of course it's not we who will be a judge of that, rather it is God, and God alone. He will make the call as to whether or not we have walked in a way worthy of eternity. If you yourself are demonstrating an active, persevering faith, you can be assured of your own salvation. You should also be able to discern, to a certain degree, those around you who demonstrate this.
However....
God doesn't make a big secret of how one can live a life pleasing to him; rather, he states it very plainly: we must walk in the same manner that Jesus himself walked. In other words, our lives must demonstrate God's love. (see all of 1 John for his take on this...)
It is also stated very plainly that faith must be accompanied by deeds in order to be valid. (see the book of James for more on that subject...) And the LORD makes it crystal clear that he will be judging us on our deeds, to see whether or not we have been walking in faith!
If our doctrines are not based on the Word of God, but rather our preconcieved notions of "how things ought to be," then those doctrines need to be ignored.
Here's a passage from John's gospel the clearly demonstrates the need to persevere in the faith in order to be saved:
I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
I am the vine; you are the branches.
If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
- John 15:1-8 NIV
Note that "fruit" is a symbol for good deeds, good works, right attitude, etc. He's not just talking about the fruit of the spirit here, but actual deeds done in His name. The proof is in the following passages:
[Note: "did," "done," "do," and "deeds" are all related terms...]
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left."Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
- Matthew 25:31-46 NIV
Notice that Jesus does not ask them if they'd said the Sinner's Prayer, or if the went to church on Sunday, or if they hosted a bible study, or if they were water baptized, or even if they were Spirit baptized. Those things never even enter the converstation. Alway he judged them on is what they did in His name.
Now here is another passage about "Judgment Day" that echoes the exact same message:
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.
The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
- Revelation 20:11-15 NIV
While the above is a judgment of non-Christians, it is interesting that some are allowed salvation because of what they had done... Of course that doesn't mean there aren't any "Christians" in this group, or, more accurately, people who were Christian in name only, not in deeds...
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
- Colossians 1:21-23 NIV
Looks like Paul is preaching a conditional salavtion to me. It's also clear Paul is exagerating, in that the gospel certainly was not preached to "every creature under heaven" in his day. However, he could be making the point that this is the same gospel that he preached in other cities, but is using a more poetic, sytlistic touch.
Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
- Ephesians 5:1-7 NIV
The same Paul who wrote "it is by faith you are saved" is now telling the Ephesians that they had better watch their actions, or risk eternal damnation...
Now I could go on and on, showing you probably a hundred passages that clearly demonstrate that their is more to salvation than just saying the Sinner's Prayer. Over and over and over Jesus and apostles warn us to live upright lives. Why the constant warnings if once we are saved, we're always saved?
Now, if we sin, and fall into some sort of immorality, we can repent, ask forgiveness, and then keep moving forward. So it's not a mistake, a series of mistakes, or even a character flaw that will keep us from being saved; rather, it is willful rebellion against the gospel.
You are a good brother Cvengr, and as a brother in the LORD I strongly encourage to check every doctrine at the door of the Word of God. If those doctrines you've been taught don't measure up to the Word, then get rid of them. It's literally that simple.
I encourage you to post any and all scripture that you think supports the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. You get to have the last word in this discussion, but make sure your word contains the WORD. (No need to post entire sections like I did, verse references are good enough...)
Another fine post! Here are some more:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.For those who are interested, here is an allegory:
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
In the Book of Mormon, the prophet Lehi, while journeying from Jerusalem, saw a vision of a tree with most delightful fruit representing the love of God, a strait and narrow path leading to it, a rod of iron along the path representing the Word of God, mists of darkness representing the temptations of Satan, etc.
The general idea is that if we think we can just sit back and coast to the victory, we are likely to get derailed by a very cunning adversary. We need to love God with all our might, mind, and strength, overcome the world through faith in Christ, overcome temptation, forsake every evil way, be dedicated and devoted, hold tight to the Word of God, be faithful and not slothful servants, and so forth.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 8:19-24 (about 600 BC)Even after they had partaken of the love of God, another challenge awaited them:
19 And I beheld a rod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.
20 And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood; and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world.
21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.There were many who not only held on firmly to the Word of God, resisting temptation, until they reached the tree and partook of the love of God, but also gave no heed to the mockers and the scoffers, and thus did not fall away like the others.
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.
God does all of the saving. With man it is impossible. We are saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ. But that does not mean we sit back and do nothing. There are so many things God has commanded us to do, many people in need of our help, much love and charity to offer, many little everyday kindnesses to do consistently to bless the lives of others, much meekness and humility to learn, much righteousness we should be bringing to pass if our Lord would consider us to be devoted disciples of Christ in very deed, trying to be like Him, and not just professing.
God knows who are his ....no way we can know this information unless we have access to the mind and foresight of God, which none of us do.
By faith in Him, this may be known. Consider Rom 3:22. Doubts upon one's salvation are an indicator of having been out of fellowship with Him,..one method and stage of divine discipline. Hebrews read in one sitting provides doctrine regarding this matter.
< faith must be accompanied by deeds in order to be valid.
Faith is non-meritorious, precisely one reason why God may use our faith and make it efficacious for salvation, purely from His work. There is a difference in the faith of salvation which is not removed, and a contiuing sanctification by walking in faith, producing divinely good works. Our inheritance and rewards are different than the issue of salvation.
Christ already died on the Cross for all sin, past, present, and future. He was judged on the cross for all sin. Our personal forgiveness of our personal sins occurs upon our acceptance of that redemption by simple faith alone in Him. Anything else added to that faith produces something other than faith alone, and isn't the stuff which may be used by the Holy Spirit to regenerate our human spirit.
Notice that Jesus does not ask them if they'd said the Sinner's Prayer, ... Alway he judged them on is what they did in His name.
The Great White Throne Judgment mentions 2 books, a Book of Names and a Book of Works. In the case of unbelievers, their names are blotted out of the Book of names. But remember, sin is no longer the issue. Sin was imputed upon Christ on the Cross. He bore the judgment of all sin throughout all of mankind, past, present and future. Where somebody has not had faith in Jesus Christ, their names are not listed. Now, a second set of books are opened. A book of Works is also referenced. This is in part because Christ settled the judgment of sin by His sacrificial atonement and propitiation for our sin. The issues of good and evil have never yet been settled.
Those who attempt to live a life without faith in Him, now are allowed an evidenciary hearing and judgment purely upon their works. The only problem is that wherever their works lack divine righteousness, they are simply good for nothingness or PONEROS. Those works not performed through faith in Him are then burnt up and those remaining without those divine good works have no salvation from condemnation. Meanwhile those with faith in Him, even once in their lives, for even a split second, still have eternal life.
Eternal life is not the rewards which God has predestined for us, rather even richer glory lies awaiting every believer in heaven.
The warnings not to give up our inheritance simply point to how, should we fall away from Him, disobey, sin, fall out of fellowship from Him, act not in faith, then we simply leave those rewards in heaven as an eternal memorial to the consequence of evil and human good independent of God. Whenever we might sin, we can in no ways ever remove the saving work of Christ, nor the regeneration of the human spirit by the Holy Spirit, nor is God able to remove that which He has already performed by His own character for us, but the post salvation sinner doesn't get away with anything. The post salvation sins merely table some of those eternal rewards for all eternity. In many cases where those eternal rewards are predesitned in His plan for other agents of grace, they may even be given to others in the fulfillment of His plan.
Paul is not preaching a conditional salvation based upon works, or contiueing faith, rather he points out that those who stray from the faith are disciplined and if continuously in rebellion may face the sin unto death or removal from this world because they are not serving any useful function. Salvation isn't conditioned with believers, but fiture inheritance and rewards are conditioned in our receipt upon our remining faithful and in deed.
For the unbeliever, the admonitions are directed towards those who are soulish, lacking spirit, simply telling them point blank, no matter what their argument, their eternal state in heaven will not be given to those who are immoral. So it's not a mistake, a series of mistakes, or even a character flaw that will keep us from being saved; rather, it is willful rebellion against the gospel.
Now if this is in true, then rejection of faith alone, even for one moment in willful rebellion would be sufficient to deny salvation. On the contrary, salvation is by faith alone.
For the CHurch Age believer this is significant because we now remain indwelt by each person of the Trinity. One of Satan's most powerful defenses is to encourage the believer to doubt their salvation, because then they fall away and out of faith in Him,..thereby not producing the powerful play made available to counter Satan or the fallen angels or their appeal in this Church Age.