For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, - 1 Thessalonians 5:9
It begins:
3 the disciples ask what are the signs of His coming.
6-8 wars and rumors of wars, but it is just the beginning.
9 all the nations will hate Christians
10 believers will fall away
11 there will be false prophets
12 love will be a rare thing
13 he that endures to the end will be saved
14 the gospel will be preached everywhere and “then shall the end come”
15-20 when you see the abomination of desolution, flee
21-22 for “then shall be the great tribulation
23-28 then is when there will be false prophets and false Christs everywhere with great power
29-30 then Christ appears in power, visibly as He left
31 – the elect are gathered “from one end of heaven to the other”
35-36 that His words are true though only the Father knows the exact date and time
No one on the religion forum shows a more Christ-like attitude than you, and you quote the scriptures very well. Best regards.
Yes, there will be great judgements on unbelievers during the time of Revelation and the during reign of the antichrist, but not enough to put an end to the "good life."
Revelation 18--the lament over the destruction of Babylon--is proof that people will be "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" until Jesus comes back and the first, and only, rapture takes place:
“‘Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!While this is certainly a very poetic description of the destruction of Babylon, it points out some very interesting things we need to note:In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’
“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim,
‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
“‘Woe! Woe, O great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.’”
Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
“With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.
The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.
The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world’s great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth.”
- Revelation 18:16-24 NIV
1. Life was fairly normal (at least for those living in Babylon!) up to it's very end.
2. The end for Babylon came "in one hour." This is another way of saying very quickly and without warning.
3. Starting in 18:1, we see that Babylon was a center of commerce and luxury up to the very "hour" it was destroyed. Whatever plauges and disasters struck, it did not have much of an effect, if any, on Babylon and it's citizens. And if the plagues and disasters did not have much of an effect on Babylon before it was destroyed, then they must not have had much of an effect on other nations than traded with her.
This might be difficult to believe considering the nature of the plauges described, but it's amazing how "normal" of a life you can live even in the midst of great hardship. Even during times of war, famine, and disease, people still manage to feed themselves, get married, and even celebrate! The destruction Jesus is refering to when he brings up Noah is not just a series of plauges and disasters, but the ultimate, final destruction of the wicked. In other words, not just punishment and judgment, but death itself.
Now here's something that's quite interesting....
Right before the destruction of Babylon, which occurs when the seventh bowl judgment is poured out, we have these very words of Jesus recorded by John:
“Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”Here it is, only one plauge to go, and Jesus is warning us that he's coming like a thief! If he came already, then why is he warning us that he's still to come? "I come like a thief" is the cornerstone upon which the pre-trib is built, yet a majority of the stuff in Revelation has already occured when Jesus says these words in the context of Revelation! It is important to note that up to this point in Revelation, there is no description of Jesus coming back to earth to gather his saints. That does not occur until Rev 19 & 20.- Revelation 16:15 NIV
Soon after Jesus utters these words in Rev 16:15, we have the quick and unexpected destruction of Babylon (Rev 18) and then Jesus comes back to earth to reign (Rev 19 & 20).
Then there is one little passage in Revelation 20 that utterly destroys the idea of a pre-trib rapture. Note that all the events of the end-times have taken place at this point, including Armageddon and the return of Christ to earth:
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God.
They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands.
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
- Revelation 20:4-6 NIV
Here, for the first time in the book of Revelation, we have a passage that speaks of the rapture. John is speaking of the "first resurrection" from the dead, where the dead in Christ come to life and reign with Jesus. Notice that John insists this is the first resurrection, and for it to be first, no resurrection of the dead in Christ could have possibly proceeded it. For the first time in the book of Revelation, here in Chapter 20, after all the horrid events have taken place, and Jesus has come back to reign on earth, do we finally have the rapture.
How do we know for sure that these passages from Rev 20:4-6 are the rapture? We know this because at the time of the rapture, the dead in Christ will be resurrected first, before any living Christian. We often forget that the rapture is not only for those who are alive on earth at the time of Christ's return, but it is also for those who are already dead in Christ!
Paul makes sure we understand this point in his first letter to the Thessalonians:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.- 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NIV
The dead in Christ are not resurrected until Chapter 20 of Revelation, well after the tribulation and all the other events of the end-times have occured. Therefore, scripture once again soundly contradicts the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture.
No matter what line of reasoning you take for the pre-trib rapture, there's always at least one, if not many sciptures that contradicts it.
Now do understand that I was indoctrinated into the docrine of the pre-trib rapture right from Day One of my salvation. I knew the teachings better than anyone else, and taught the pre-trib rapture as being the truth.
However, the Holy Spirit would not allow me to hold on to those views. When I studied the Bible, I realized that in order to hold on to the pre-trib rapture teachings, I'd have to throw out the Bible! There isn't so much as a single passage in the whole Bible that one could interpret as supporting a pre-trib rapture. As a matter of fact, most of the teachings of the pre-trib rapture are pure speculation. I've searched for over fifteen years, and cannot find so much as a single verse that supports pre-trib rapture. Literally all the verses used to support it are either taken out of context or are stripped of their plain meaning, and given a "spiritual" meaning that contradicts the plain meaning of the text.
Personally, I would much prefer a pre-trib rapture! For what Christian would want to endure the wrath of the antichrist as he seeks to remove all Christians from the face of the earth??? I didn't become a Christian to be a martyr for the faith!
But the Holy Spirit showed me that the pre-trib rapture is completely unbiblical. He changed my views, using nothing more than scipture to do it.
What is more, the Holy Spirit has also clearly shown me that the philosophy behind the pre-trib rapture is nothing less than satanic. I do not exagerate. This doctrine is evil, and from the pits of hell.
And what is the philosophy behind the pre-trib rapture that makes it so very evil? That philosophy is that God will protect us from persecution--especially persecution that leads to death. However, God makes no such promise in the NT. As a matter of fact, He makes a point of telling us over and over to expect persecution, and even persecution unto death!!! Eleven of the Twelve apostles can't be wrong--John is the only apostle that was not martyred, as far as we know.
And of course, Christians are martyred nearly every day around the world, espeically in the Mid-East, Africa and south Asia. If Christians are being martyred even as I write this, then how can we preach and teach a doctrine who's entire point is avoiding persecution unto death?
According to the pre-trib doctine, God is going to raise up a whole new church after we are gone, so they will be persecuted unto death in our place! How very nice! It's right there in all the "Left Behind" books, and has been taught ever since their has been such a thing as a pre-trib rapture.
Now here's the question: Why would God take one church out of the world in order to escape persecution, only to raise up a brand-new church so they can suffer for the sake of the Gospel in our place? What was wrong with the church already here, that God had to remove them? Perhaps they were just too wimpy and self-absorbed, so God did not wish to honor them by having them die for their fatih...
Of course the American church does not teach about the high honor of being a martyr for the faith; that has become a disgusting idea amongst the church. Instead we are taught that we all get a ticket out of here, so that we can avoid all the pain and suffering. After all, God wouldn't want us to experinece pain and discomfort, would He? No, of course not. That's why there will be scapegoats; a new church created after we are gone; so we can party with Jesus without having to have had the experience of getting our heads cut-off. After all, Jesus certainly didn't experinece any pain or suffering while he was on earth...
The Catholics once taught--and I think they still teach-- that the end-times will be "the passion" of the church. No need, or even a desire, for a pre-trib rapture. Rather, they understand that the church might just have to experience the same pain and suffering as did Jesus before God brings everything to a conclusion.
Don't you see the evil behind all this? If it weren't for the need to escape from persecution of the antichrist, there would be no need for a pre-trib rapture. It's that simple.
The Anglo/American church decided that God would never allow them to experience the pains of persecution, so they invented the pre-trib rapture out of whole cloth as a means to escape even the idea of persecution unto death.
Let's be honest: one of the pre-trib teachers' main points in support of the pre-trib ratpure is that God would NEVER pour out His wrath on his own people. But then these same pre-trib teachers have no problem what-so-ever inventing the idea of a "new church" which will come into existence after the rapture to bear the brunt of all our pain and suffering. Well why are we so special, and they aren't? Why do they get to suffer in our place?
And why is scripture completely silent about this whole idea about a "new church" coming into existence after the rapture? Why are there no verses or passages what-so-ever that support this idea?
Let's call the pre-trib rapture what it is: an total escape from the idea of having to suffer for the sake of the Gospel. Jesus, and most of the apostles suffered unto death. And while they didn't like it, they allowed God to put them into positions that demanded their very lives. So why is it that the pre-trib people are jumping the gun, and already saying "NO" to the cross??? Is this an attitude that pleases God???
Something to think about, anyway...
Personally, I don't want to be martyred. It's not my idea of a good time. Nor do I want my wife or children to be martyred. But I will not go so far as to think that will never happen. Nor will I go so far as to think God would never want that for me. I hope and pray that I will spared from all that, but I don't really know what's in store for the future. But if my life is demanded becaue I love and preach the Word of Truth, I do hope I will be able to honor all those martyrs who've gone before me.
Alamo-Girl, if you wish to believe in the pre-trib rapture, that's fine. But please take into account what I'm saying here, and keep it in the back of your mind. Perhaps you will be home with the LORD before any of this "end-times" stuff comes to pass, and so you will be watching from the grandstands in heaven.
But if you are still here, and things get rather difficult for us Christians because there's a very charismatic man on earth telling us he's god, and backs it up with signs and wonders, do remember what I've said.
As for me, I'd much rather believe in the post-trib rapture and find out I'm wrong, then to believe in the pre-trib rapture and find out I'm wrong!