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To: FactQuest
As laid out in this thread's parent, yes. But, in the matter of the absolutely most important decision in a person's life, whether to follow Jesus or not, no, Calvinists do not believe in free will. This, despite the fact that we are held accountable before a righteous and just God to judge us, - yet how could a righteous and just God punish us for something we had no control over whatsoever? Calvinists claim there is a higher mystery to God's justice that we can't fathom, but have to accept. Well, in the end, they may be right, but this is quite contrary to our God-given sense of justice, and most importantly, it may not be the best way to interpret the scriptures.

No, we do believe that every man MUST CHOOSE to repent and Believe. The question is can a dead man make that choice or does he need to be quickened first?

Your problem is you assume that God OWES an opportunity for salvation to men. That somehow God owes us that shot. I do not think you know what Justice is.

Justice was the killing of men , women and children in the flood , It was reigning down fire on Sodom . Justice was sending the nation of Israel into captivity .

Justice is giving a man what he deserves. Does man DESERVE to be saved? Is that what you call "godly justice"?

God is only sovereign over what He chooses to be sovereign over. If He chooses to allow free will, that is His prerogative. If He does not allow free will, then He is the author of evil.

Could I have a scripture that says that God has made man sovereign over Him or that he has yielded his sovereignty to men ?

1)I see no less grace, and I certainly don't see that it has been removed.
2)There is nothing I can do to merit salvation - salvation is offered as a free gift from God.
3)If that wasn't enough, God also "revives" me to a point where I can accept the gift, when my total depravity disables me from accepting the gift.

Lets go through this. 1) What is your definition of Grace? The standard Protestant one is "Gods UNMERITED Favor". The minute you add anything to your salvation that man MUST preform , it is no longer UNMERITED as you have preformed an act that God reward .God has become your debtor. It is no longer grace

2) You have just told us what you MUST do to merit your salvation. You must CHOOSE CORRECTLY . Your correct choice is then rewarded with salvation

3) Could you show me the partial revival scripture? Is everyone partially revived? What makes one partially revived person make the correct choice and another not?

How do you deal with the following scripture with you belief that God has given may some of His sovereignty and that his partial revival sometimes fails?

Jhn 6:29This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father..

     Phl 1:29   For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

God never changes , not His word or His promises

We are told in Romans that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

How do you reconcile men being "partially" revived and then hearing the word and deciding to refuse it with this scripture?

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

I believe that God would like for all to believe). It was their choices. Anything more, and He would have to remove free will in the matter. Which brings us back to square one, I believe.

Read the above scripture again , it says His word does exactly what HE wants it to do , how do you reconcile that with the fact that God wants every man saved?

God is in the business of the restoration of free will, not the removal of it.

Is there a scripture that says than a man must "choose" Christ?

38 posted on 05/12/2004 1:27:09 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
we do believe that every man MUST CHOOSE to repent and Believe. The question is can a dead man make that choice or does he need to be quickened first?

It seems we agree here.

Your problem is you assume that God OWES an opportunity for salvation to men. That somehow God owes us that shot. I do not think you know what Justice is.

Owes? I don't think so. I simply think God has said that he does.

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
1 John 4:14, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."
Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Jesus...that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
2 Corinthians 5:14-15, "For the love of Christ constraineth us...And that he died for all..."
John 1:29, "...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Matthew 18:14 "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
Now, I'm not a universalist - the Bible says that salvation is conditional on our belief and repentance:
1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
Galatians 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
John 3:15 "so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Does man DESERVE to be saved? Is that what you call "godly justice"?

No, and no.

Could I have a scripture that says that God has made man sovereign over Him or that he has yielded his sovereignty to men ?

I disagree strongly with the characterization, but, consider every promise of God that takes the format of "if you will, then I will".
Exodus 23:22 "If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you."

There are of course, many many more promises of God. We see throughout the Bible that God makes promises, and we praise Him for these. Do these make man sovereign over God? I think not. God chooses to make promises, and He always keeps His promises. I think to call this "God yielding sovereignty" is a misconstruing of the nature of a convenant-making God.

You have just told us what you MUST do to merit your salvation. You must CHOOSE CORRECTLY . Your correct choice is then rewarded with salvation

What you must do, yes, but there is no merit. It is not a work. You must accept the free gift which you have not earned - you must not resist the grace. If you earn it, it is not a gift. Accepting a gift is clearly different from earning a gift. A gift cannot be earned, a gift can only be accepted, or rejected.

Could you show me the partial revival scripture? Is everyone partially revived? What makes one partially revived person make the correct choice and another not?

Fair questions, that hinge on the question of irresistable grace. And, perhaps the wink link in my theology, for the verses that address a non-effecacious regeneration are scarce. It does seems strongly inferred, for I do not deny that regeneration precedes faith, but yet I cannot deny that the Word presents belief as a choice.

Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! "

Now, for some of your verses.

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him"

Clearly speaks to regeneration preceding faith... but, it saying all A are B, but it does not say all B are A. All of the set of people who come are in the set of people who are drawn. It is silent on the question of whether all who are in the set that are drawn are in the set that come.

John 6:39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing"

All in the set "given" are in the set "not lost". In this case, clear proof of the perservance of the saints. Unless someone can show the Father's will can be thwarted, or that it might imply a Self-imposed limit on God.

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me"

This one is less clear to me. It seems a little redundant, so perhaps I should read it more carefully. It could refer effectual calling, or it could refer to "given" on earth will "come" to Him in heaven, or it could refer to refer to sanctification...

Jhn 6:29This is the work of God, that ye believe on him

God did all the work. He made a way, Jesus died and rose, and the HS draws. God offers the gift. You do nothing but accept.

How do you reconcile men being "partially" revived and then hearing the word and deciding to refuse it with this scripture?

With the parable of the sower. Those on the rocky soil... the seed springs up - signs of life - but it withers and dies. The word was ineffectual.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,

Doesn't mean that every hearer will respond.

Read the above scripture again , it says His word does exactly what HE wants it to do , how do you reconcile that with the fact that God wants every man saved?

That God allows man's free will to play a role in whether they choose the gift of grace. How do you reconcile it?

Is there a scripture that says than a man must "choose" Christ?

Yes, many. It is a theme throughout the whole Bible.

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants"
Joshua 24:15 "...choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: ... but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

And, throughout the New Testament, repentance of sin and belief in Christ (as opposed to belief in anything or anyone else, ie, a choice) are the prerequisites for salvation. Which, once again, brings us back to square one.

Wow, this took a long time. I'll try and get to another post tomorrow.

God bless you.
42 posted on 05/13/2004 2:02:23 PM PDT by FactQuest
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