MARIAN DEVOTION - Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God

Various ^

[NYer]

The Akathist Hymn is a profound, devotional poem or chant, which sings the praises of the Holy Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary (Theotokos). Devotional Hymns to the Theotokos are as ancient as the first Christian Church. The Byzantine Empire from its very inception at Constantinople during the fourth century, closely allied itself to the Virgin Mary and always sort Her protection or intercessions. This we see from the Prayer Services to the Theotokos between the fifth and eighth centuries, and the reference to Constantinople as the 'Queen City'.

The Akathist Hymn was not strange to the Latin West even though apart from the Eastern Church. Pope Benedict XIV granted on May 4, 1746 an indulgence of 50 days to the Latin and Eastern Rite Roman Catholics, for each recitation of the Hymn.

Fr. Vincent McNabb, a Roman Catholic Priest in London, translated the Hymn into English in 1934. In his forward remarks he stated "No apology is needed for introducing the Akathistos to the Christian West. Indeed the West might well be apologetic about its neglect, or ignorance of such a liturgical and literary masterpiece".

[NYer]

A beautiful devotion to the Blessed Mother, as we enter the Month of May.

[biblewonk]

Oh goodie, some Marian stuff. How about some DeMontfort.

[fortunecookie]

Thank you for posting this beautiful hymn honoring the Theotokos. (Certainly makes any OCP hymn pale in comparison...) Some of you probably already have, but if you ever get a chance to hear it sung live or even on a CD, be sure not to miss it. It's even more beautiful and awe-inspiring when it's sung. Almost other-worldly. Such a beautiful and rich tradition. I have heard it live and have a tape of it and am searching for a link.

[jtminton]

You know who REALLY hates Marian stuff? James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.

[biblewonk]

You know who REALLY hates Marian stuff? James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.

It wasn't invented yet.

[jtminton]

Well, they probably hate it now.

[topcat54]

The Byzantine Empire from its very inception at Constantinople during the fourth century, closely allied itself to the Virgin Mary and always sort Her protection or intercessions.

Too bad Jesus wasn't available. Things might have gone better.

[Pyro7480]

If you can't say anything but the typical Protestant rant, take your comments elsewhere. They're not welcome here.

[biblewonk]

If you can't say anything but the typical Protestant rant, take your comments elsewhere. They're not welcome here.

I didn't know there were private threads here.

[biblewonk]

It is not our view that every doctrine of Christianity must appear whole, explicit, and often, in the pages of the Bible.

Now that is an understatement.

[dangus]

Yeah, it must have been really painful to hear their aunt entrusted to a non-relative:

Behold, the MOTHER of YOU (singular).

Either way you interpret this bible verse, it's gonna disprove a Protestant position, because in the Greek, "you" is exclusively singular. The two ways of taking this (both of which are true.)

1. In the HISTORICAL sense, this was spoken to the disciple John. Jesus is dying on the cross, and puts John in charge of taking care of his mother in his corporeal absence. By using the singular form of "you," he reveals that Mary has no other children in this sense. If James, Joseph, Simon and Jude [/Judas] were her children, this statement would have been proclaiming them disowned, an inconceivably harsh response, given the forgiveness extended Peter just a chapter later.

2. In the PROPHETIC sense, this statement is declared to the reader of the gospel. Note that the disciple is not directly identified as John, but rather as the beloved disciple. In this sense, the reader becomes the singular person who is commanded to behold his mother.

So who are James, Joseph, Simon and Jude? The Greek word used to describe their relation to Jesus means either "cousins" or "brothers." However, as used, their is a seperate Greek word for "cousins" which may have otherwise been used; using a Greek word which can also mean "brothers," exclusively, would be a rarer usage in this context. And while it is a rarer usage, it is by no means unprecedented.

... Except when one remembers that Jesus wasn't speaking Greek, but rather Hebrew or Aramaic, which don't have a seperate word for "cousins." Even if Jesus had meant "cousins," he would have said, in Aramaic, "brothers." Hence, a direct translation from Aramaic to Greek would have used the Greek word chosen by the evangelists.

Many Orthodox Christians insist simultaneously that Mary was ever-virgin AND that Jesus had brothers! None of the early cultures had any language whatsoever for "half" brothers. Catholic and Orthodox legends agree that Joseph was much older than Mary. According to the Orthodox, Joseph had children by a previous wife, including, James, "the brother of Jesus," also called, "the elder." But such children would have been seen as children of Mary. To further complicate matters, there is another Mary "of Clopas," and ancient maps equate the Clopas with Alphaeus.

Reconcile these names:

"Mary, the mother of James"
"James, of Alphaeus... Judas, the brother of James"
"Jude, servant of Christ and brother of James"
"James, brother of Christ"
"James and Joseph, sons of Mary"
"Mary, the wife of Clophas, and Mary

So, there was a Mary besides the mother of Jesus, who had sons named James, Jude/Judas, and Joseph/Joses. The Protestant position would insist:

Jesus had brothers named James, Joseph, and Judas who were his travelling companions. He also chose apostles who were named James and Judas, who were not his brothers. He also had travelling companions who were brothers, but who were not his brothers, and who were not chosen apostles, who were brothers named James, Joseph and Judas. James his brother (of Joseph) he made authoritative to write scripture, but James his disciple (of Alphaeus), he made authoritative to govern the church in Jerusalem.

If we assert that James "the brother of Jesus" is in fact also James "the son of [or, from] Alphaeus," and also James "the son of Mary... of Clopas" than we have a much smaller cast and the bizarre coincidences disappear.

[biblewonk]

Anti-Marian verses

******************* Mother of God *************

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I had to add Gen 3 to build on mat 11:11. Both show that Jesus is not of Mary's seed since here we see that seed does NOT mean physical seed. If it did it would have to mean that for the serpent too.

Mat: 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

In other words He is not of Mary. She is not His mother genetically. He did not come from one of her eggs. Sure he came through her but he is not of her.

Mat 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:31-35 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for the.
and he answered them, saying, who is my mother, or my brethren?
And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother and my sister, and mother.

Luke 11:27,28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare these and the paps which thou has sucked.
but he said, Yea rather , blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Gal 4:22-31:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that there really is a mother of the church and it isn't Mary! Once again Mary is not even mentioned.

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisdec.

Heb 7: 1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Melchizedek is a type of Christ and is a priest of a higher order than Aaron. His priesthood is typified by being based on merit and not on blood and it is an eternal priesthood. This verse shows that in the sense of Jesus has no mother or father. Jesus has no mother or father physically like Melchizedek but in what sense if the Father His Father? We know that Jesus was not created so it is really positionally that the Father is His Father. This shows that the whole idea and title of "Mother of God" is anti-scriptural. b>

*************** Ever Virgin *************

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Normal reading of this says they had sex after she bore the Lord.

*********** Queen of Heaven *********

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

Jer 44:19 The women also said, "And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands' permission?"

Jer 44:25 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: "You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, "We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her." You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!'

Mat 22: 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:22

Luke 20:29

The fact that we are not given in marriage in heaven is repeated 3 times and usually with an exhortation about knowing the scriptures. The only reference to a queen of heaven is of a pagan idol. The rational for Mary being the Bride of the Holy Spirit is removed because we are not given in marriage in Heaven. The idea of her being Queen mother in heaven doesn’t work because if we don’t have wives in heaven, we don’t have kids in heaven. The Idea of Mary being the Mother of God and the wife of the Holy Spirit and the recipient of prayers makes her the 4th part of a man made quadiny.

****** Verses about Mary being assumed into heaven *****

None

******* Verses about Immaculate Conception of Mary *****

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

******* Verses about Mary distributing Grace ******

None

******* Verses that say to pray to dead people ******

None

[dangus]

I would add that when Jesus calls Mary "Woman," he is using the same play on words Genesis recorded: "Eve" meaning "Woman." Hence, the assertion that Mary is the New Eve is recalled not only in her perfect submission to God (as noted in the Lucan infancy narrative), but also in the manner Jesus himself addresses her:

"Woman, why do you trouble me with this?"
"Woman, behold your son."

Also, note that the same Johannine bible passage depicts Jesus transforming water into wine at the request of his mother. Keep in mind the symbolism: Water, representing cleansing from sin by subtraction (judgment), is transformed into wine, the Blood of Christ, through which we receive mercy and are saved. So note: God the Son first revealed his mercy to mankind at the direction of his mother!

(Does this constitute worship of Mary? Certainly not: She instructs the waiters (priests) simply to "do as he tells you to." To worship is to place oneself in the service of another. It is Christ's will which we obey; her will is in union with his.)

[dangus]

It IS our belief that public revelation was complete within the Bible. How is this different from Sola Scriptura?

Sola Scriptura, as used presently by Protestants, essentiall presumes the negative on all matters of conflict between Catholics and Protestants. But the negation itself is a presumption, and therefore violates Sola Scriptura.

Does the bible tell us Mary was conceived immaculate? Not directly. It also does not tell us she was NOT conceived immaculate. We have to infer.

The Protestant position (that she was not) has its merits: the bible does say "All have sinned." But there are exceptions to many other apparently absolute statements: Enoch and Elijah did not suffer earthly death, even though "all" people do. Jesus says, "No one has seen the Father," but Jacob did.

The Catholic position is that the Temple which bears the Word of God must be immaculate. Granting this, does it make sense that she was
1. made pure through an instrument other than Christ.
2. was created pure in the first place.

Since Jesus calls her Eve, and notion 1 is harder to reconcile with the role Jesus plays in the world than notion 2 is, the Catholic Church chooses notion 2.

[biblewonk]

The Catholic position is that the Temple which bears the Word of God must be immaculate. Granting this, does it make sense that she was

There is absolutely no reason to grant or believe that. It is purely invention. It is not suggested in the bible at all.

[biblewonk]

By what authority does your exegesis refute mine? I defer to the exegesis of the Fathers of the Church who knew Jesus and heard His teachings first hand. People who were of the time of Jesus and knew His culture intimately. They knew the "senses" of Scripture in addition to the literal alone.

Your type of authority is the same type used by the Pharasees(sp). You stand on tradition and name dropping, I stand on the Word alone. There is no scriptural mention of a second Eve ever anywhere. The woman in Revelation is Israel but you've heard that before from other "unauthorized" non Catholics.