A draft translation of the new Mass in English (New Translation from ICEL)

ABC (Australian) ^ | 2004 | n/a

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Well, its certainly a vast improvement, although a few wordings are ackward or strange.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Well, its certainly a vast improvement, although a few wordings are awkward or strange.

[RonF]

Was the Nicene Creed originally written in Latin? If not, what did the original say?

[ninenot]

people of good will

...for us, and for our..

PC.

Legitimate translation, because Homines is not equivalent to "men;" on the other hand, "men" was used in both instances pre-1965.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

"We believe" is the original of the Nicene Creed. When it was amended and expanded at Constantinople, the wording "I believe" was used. Generally, "We believe" is used in councils to express the united will of the Fathers there. "I believe" is used for personal professions.

I don't really see this making a difference one way or another in Church today, although the translation should be faithful to the Latin, which uses "I believe".

[Arguss]

If one were to make this saga into a book it would be called "1962 Missal meets 1965 and 1969 Missal in 2004"

Is the Church now admitting the Missal of Paul VI was a mistake,and is now making amends despite the fact that Ecclesia Dei forbids the mingling of the two or three Missals? It seems that way.
And that would be good.

Or, is it a further obfuscation, or mingling, of the two or three Missals, so that no argument can be made of the merits for or against one or the other?

[NYer]

Perhaps one of these days they'll finalize this into a workable missal.

[ahadams2]

while some folks don't see the shift to first person singular in the Creed as any big deal, over here in Anglican land I expect adoption of this new translation will be fought tooth and nail by the heretics. The reason for this is that the *ahem* "affirming catholics" (frank the heretic and rowan the fuzzy are 'affirming catholics' - it means they'd like to be you guys, except for all those rules you've got...)teach their people that by using the 'we' form (i.e. "we believe") it only indicates an *corporate* acceptance of the Creed as factually true - no individual acceptance required.

Personally I think the retranslation (acknowledging Herman the Cherusker's valid point concerning the Council's version versus the common use version) is great! If this sort of thing continues it may not be too long before the ICEL falls out of favor with all of the left leaning groups over here on the Protestant side of the aisle.

[ahadams2]

of interest to both Anglo-Catholics and Rite II aficionados Ping.

[Diva]

Looks like we will go back to (striking breastthree times) in the Confiteor: "Through my fault, Through my fault, Through my most grievous fault."

Now I know why our pastor had us start doing this several months ago. I know he is very pleased by these changes that are coming.

[pseudo-ignatius]

Noticed one change in the creed that is more "PC" inclusive language than what we already have. It's now "for us and for our salvation" instead of "for us men and for our salvation." The Latin original is clear: "Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem."

[redhead]

"Looks like we will go back to (striking breastthree times) in the Confiteor: I can't remember the last time we recited the Confiteor at Mass :("

Priests frequently leave it off so they can wax eloquent in the "Lord Have Mercy's", but our parish says it at every Mass.

[conservonator]

Priests frequently leave it off so they can wax eloquent in the "Lord Have Mercy's", ...

That's our parish.

[redhead]

"It seems to me that the Latin Mass in the Tridentine or NO form should be readily available to all the faithful."

It is. We have a NO Latin Mass every First Saturday, in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary. There are good little booklets out, from Ignatius Press, I believe, that are free for the asking, that contain this lovely Mass. If you haven't done so yet, watch Mass on EWTN to see how it is done. They do it absolutely correctly (according to the strictest NO norms and Vatican II "original intent".)

[ninenot]

Strictly speaking, priest/celebrants may not mix the Old RITE and the New RITE's elements--which is not the same as the Missals for either.

But if the Old RITE's Missal contains the same text (i.e., in the Creed or Gloria) as the New RITE's Missal, then one must follow the Rite, whichever.

You will note, I am sure, that the Old Rite 'confiteor' is SUBSTANTIALLY different from the New Rite's. Similarly, the Kyrie, repeated 3x in the Old, is only repeated twice in the New.

There are a number of small differences between the two, before we get to rubrics, readings, vestments, and music.

[ninenot]

Yeah, but viri is specifically "men" where homo, hominis actually translates 'people,' or 'mankind.'

So the translation is legitimate, but not identical to the pre-1965.

[pseudo-ignatius]

Well, what bothers me about the translation is that the new version just omits a word from the creed. I would rather it say "for us humans" (as that's the most literal translation), even, if people have a problem with "for us men." I just don't think there's a reason for having a problem with "us men," apart from lame-PC-feminism.

[Arguss]

"Strictly speaking, priest/celebrants may not mix the Old RITE and the New RITE's elements--which is not the same as the Missals for either."

Absolutely rite (pun intended) I couldn't think of the word "rite" so I settled on "Missal"

mea culpa Thank You

[NYer]

I really think they need to address the pro multis/pro omnibus issue properly.

From the Syriac-Antiochene Maronite Consecration, which dates back to the Apostles Peter and James.

On the day before his life-giving passion,
Jesus took bread in his holy hands.
He blessed,
sanctified,
broke,
and gave it to his disciples, saying:
Take and eat it, all of you:
This is my body
which is broken and delivered for you
and for many,
for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

From what I understand, they have tampered very little with their liturgy. I suppose this discussion will persist until the Latin Rite restores the "pro multis". Then there will be much finger pointing ... ;-D.