Posted on 04/21/2004 9:40:18 PM PDT by restornu
Sorry Alex Murphy this is not the-
O'k Corral Shoot'em Out!
Not interested in notches, another reminder of this thread is "Living What We Profess!"
First of all, I didn't know I had a "group"; actually, if you preview a # of my posts, I have directly discussed Mr. Duncan or what he wrote: I addressed his point about engaging in good causes of our own free will (#71); I addressed the break in fulfilling the biological commission in his family (#77); and I addressed the following the previous section of posts:
"So how does this fully relate to living responsibly? LDS apostle says 'we are responsible by conduct and by covenants to live the standards of the gospel.' (Full quote: 'Our critics' belief, based on the Bible, holds that man is saved by grace alone. Theirs is by far the easier way. Our position, also based on the Bible but strengthened by other scriptures, holds that we are saved by grace 'after all we can do,' (2 Ne. 25:23.) and we are responsible by conduct and by covenants to live the standards of the gospel.' - Boyd K. Packer, "The Peaceable Followers of Christ," Ensign, Apr. 1998, p. 65). But the gospel literally means "good news." News is not a standard, a law, a precept, an ordinance, to obey, it's news. Jesus dying on the cross is front-page news, a historical event; you ARE forgiven is front-page news, not another "thou shalt"; Jesus rising from the dead is good news, not more sweaty merit badges you have notch on your spiritual belt."
I agree, and I'm glad you pointed this out for Rising Tide to hear. In an on-line setting, there's no way for anyone to verify personal claims anyway. Case in point - I myself am 6'3", in my thirties, and have sun-bleached bronze colored hair. I can bench press more than 250 pounds. I drive a truck for a living, and I wear my father's dogtags from the military.
But you have no way of verifying that sort of information. You're just going to have to accept my word on it, like you'd have to accept my word (and likewise I'd have to accept yours) on what my "walk" entails and whether you or I are "Living What We Profess". Being obedient is a good thing. What we are obedient to, and why, and with what results are issues that you will simply have to accept my disagreements over.
Baptism to obey? Baptism is an act of God, not of man (Acts 2:38; Titus 3:5). God clearly assumes the initiative with His grace. Man, being dead in sin (Eph. 2:1), cannot assume the initiative anymore than Lazarus could have requested to have Jesus raise him from the dead (John 11). No one can even say that the real Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3). God receives 100% credit for it is 100% His work (John 6:28-29); for Christ Himself chose us--we did not choose Him (John 15:16).
Repentance to obey? Repentance merely means "to do a u-turn" (like the prodigal son). If you call the prodigal son wandering back home some great feat or accomplishment, then you're barking up the wrong spiritual tree. It was the Father who ran to him; it was the Father who royally clothed his pig-sty presence; it was the Father's 100% acceptance despite the son's betrayal; it was the Father's provision fully, feast and all, that signified full restoration.
Too many of us identify ourselves with the other brother who had been with the Lord always, when relationally with the Father, we've been just as far off as the prodigal son.
Commandments to obey? Is keeping free from adultery a commandment? Indeed. So, is simply obeying God's commandment the real motivation & purpose behind me adhering to that? No! Keeping this commandment is a by-product of my life by way of fully loving my spouse. I want and desire to keep this commandment for lifetime relational commitment reasons--not because I haveto commandment-wise.
Likewise, the Bible continually describes our relationship with Christ in Bride-bridegroom terms (2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5; Rev. 19:7-9, etc.). We want to please our beloved bridegroom, for our marriage is relationally and covenant-focused, not rules & regulations, principles and ordinances-based.
As the Holy Spirit bears witness, and as I bear witness, that book (the Doctrine and Covenants) contains the words of Jesus Christ in the first person, spoken to His modern-day apostle, written down and canonized by His Restored Church, whose members are Christians.
If that does not have authority with some other Christians, what can I say? It certainly should.
I think that the American church needs to repent for having created the fertile ground that led to the likes of Joseph Smith. Someone once said that the "cults are the unpaid bills of the Church."
In part, it was because Joseph Smith observed doctrinal disagreements within Christendom and because too many folks' walk didn't match their talk that was at least part of the factor for him to reject what they adhered to.
Biblically, to obey comes from the literal meaning "to hear." In other words, hearing=obeying. To folks in the West, we have compartmentalized hearing God's Word from obeying it. Hence, we get into typical doctrinal disputes with Mormons where those folks emphasize the works (coupled with faith) while Protestants stress faith (coupled with works).
Faith works. Works are a natural outgrowth of a vital faith. You cannot divorce the two, anymore than we can separate mutual submission from marriage (Eph. 5:22-33). Faithfulness in marriage = servanthood to one another.
I once had an opportunity to compare apples to apples with about 13 Institute directors (those who lead Standard Works' studies @ LDS facilities located near college campuses) in an unusual dialogue.
We were discussing the BoM's use of the terms "eternal" and "everlasting" as applied to the afterlife. Now why is such a study of those words so fascinating?
Simple. In the BoM, those words are often the adjectives used to describe heaven. Guess what? Those same exact words are used to describe hell in the BoM, too. So what? you may say.
The "so what" is this: The entire genealogical/baptism for the dead enterprise w/in the LDS church is built upon the premise that hell won't be eternal or everlasting for just about everybody. Just about everybody is going to go to at least the third degree of heaven; baptism for the dead is founded upon the idea that folks can get out of (temporary) spirit prison by baptizing them by proxy.
But if hell is temporary and not eternal or everlasting, you can't play with words. That means heaven is temporary, too.
The bottom line? Let's go with what Jesus said: "Wide is the road that leads to destruction, narrow is the way to life" (Matthew 7:13)
Much is made in LDS doctrine (almost as a trump card, "We have a living prophet, youuuuu don't!") about how important it is to have a living prophet...LDS constantly cite the one passage from the book of Amos on this. Can you tell me exactly how many words your "living prophet" has passed on the direct words of Jesus or Elohim since 1890? (A rough round # will do).
As individuals, this is an admirable trait that I've observed many devout Mormons seeking to attain. However, like Colofornian observed, I would have expected an LDS hierarchy that professes to be led by Living Prophets, would likewise have received, announced, and canonized modern revelations on a more consistent basis. As an outsider, I observe a huge disconnect between their "living" and their "professing", and this is one of the reasons I disagree with those professions and doctrines they do make. Like the cop in the joke, I have reasons to believe the vehicle is stolen.
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