Replies

> Throughout this entire thread we have provided you PROOF of the invalidation of the Carbon 14 test.

No, you have not. You have provided SUGGESTIONS that it's invalid. It will only be invalidated with MORE C-14 testing on other areas of the cloth.

> Remember, these have to be scientists, not second rate magicians

Actually a FIRST rate magician would be a marvelous persoon to have on hand here. Magicians such as James Randi or Penn & Teller are valuable resources when attempting to determien if somethign is a fraud, as they see things and think in ways that good scientists simply cannot. Scientists believe the data they produce, which is generally good... except whe they are dealing with someone who is actively trying to fool them.

The shroud shoud be studied by scientists, forensic investigators, magicians and artists, all working together, and with far better access than they've had to date.

orionblamblam, you wrote: "No, you have not [proven the tests are invalid. You have provided SUGGESTIONS that it's invalid. It will only be invalidated with MORE C-14 testing on other areas of the cloth."

You fail to think this through. The tests are invalid as the material tested has been proven to be unrepresentative of the cloth. No one can stand behind the results. Thus the tests are invalid.

We cannot, of course, say that they did not produce a proper date arrived at incorrectly. And should that be the case, that would still not make the tests valid.

I, and every shroud researcher I know, would love nothing more than to see valid tests conducted. I doubt that will happen because the Catholic church has taken a firm position that no more invasive test will be done and no more dating will be done. In fact, no tests will be done except those related to preservation.

Fortunately, some material is not under their control (although it may be their legal property). And so testing does continue. Regrettably, there is insufficient material to do perform proper carbon 14 testing. Add to that, many scientists have ethical issues in opposing the Church's stance on further dating as the material's ownership is in question.

The best we can do in realizing that the cloth is much older is to examine a preponderance of other evidence such as the Sudarium, historical records, art history, the carbon 14 error estimates from Beta Analytic, fabric science, and the discovery that the Shroud contains no vanillin (which is almost certain thermal decomposition evidence that the Shroud is not medieval).

So what can we expect your reply to be regarding the vanillin.

Shroudie

The shroud shoud be studied by scientists, forensic investigators, magicians and artists, all working together, and with far better access than they've had to date.

Why should you care? You've already said pretty explicitly that you'll believe anything except that it is the burial shroud of Jesus. If these first-rate magicians say it's real, you've already said you'll believe a convoluted scam happened (they were bribed or whatever -- literally whatever). Be honest: you'd believe the Shroud was dropped off by space aliens to test our faith in atheism rather than believe it's a miraculous image of Jesus, wouldn't you?