[orionblamblam]

> If you wish to argue by science, then be scientific.

I have been. Your arguement regarding miracles is that lots of educated people believe in them; but then, lots of educated people also believe in Creationism, Clintonism, Communism and Socialism. A lot of educated people wanted Howard Dean for President.

"Lots of educated people believe that" is a meaningless arguement. Education or intelligence do not prevent one from having irrational beliefs based on emotion rather than reason.

> Belief in miracles (or magic as you like to call it) is not founded on special knowledge such as science or philosophy.

Indeed. It's based on wishful thinking.

[shroudie]

Orionblamblam, you don't read except between the line. Good trick. I said that your anti-miracle bias is showing and is unscientific. The point is not to look from a miracle point of view or an anti-miracle point of view but from a scientific point of view.

To accuse the other person of irrational thinking without explanation or accuse the other person of wishful thinking without justification is just blowing smoke. That is all you are doing.

I have no idea how the images were formed. I have no idea if they are perfectly natural or the by-product of a miracle. I am quite certain that they are not fake. The scientific evidence on this is quite clear. I do know that the carbon 14 tests are discredited (and yes there is evidence that the cloth is much older).

Get over it.