[shroudie]

Orionblamblams, you state that there haven't been any miracles. You suggest that this is so because none have been documented adequately. This is, of course, your opinion. Plenty of people do believe that miracles are adequately documented. Would you be so kind as to share with us by what criteria you can make such a bold statement.

You and many of the Jesus Seminar folks seem to share a profound faith that miracles do not happen. I recognize that this is an ad hominem statement. What else, however, can I think as you refuse to present a logical case. Their arguments have been that the enlightenment experience has shown that many things once thought miraculous have been shown to have quite natural explanations. But such Newtonian based thinking is shown to be bankrupt by new discoveries in quantum theory, chaos, non-locality and anthropic bias reasoning.

You have a very skewed sense of logic as demonstrated by your unwavering defense of the carbon 14 test validity. Imagine if you will that, in a murder trail, an expert testifies that a gun was used in the murder. But later, it was shown that the forensic evidence was flawed. New evidence makes it clear that no one can know if the gun was used or not. Using your logic we must consider that the gun was used unless it can be proven that the gun was not used.

We know, definatively, that what was tested by radiocarbon dating was not a representative sample of the Shroud. The tests cannot be considered valid. They have been completely discredited. You wish us to trust unrealiable tests in the absence of other tests to the contrary. Are you for real? Shall we hang the poor guy because we don't know know if the gun was used in a murder?

You are clearly out in left field.

[orionblamblam]

>Plenty of people do believe that miracles are adequately documented. Would you be so kind as to share with us by what criteria you can make such a bold statement.

That's easy. An event that is undisputeable that it occured, was recorded by multiple sources, and which has *NO* other reasonable or even physically possible explanations. The Muslims believe that Mohammad pointed at the moom and it broke in half. That would rank as a miracle... were it not for the fact that it is undocumented except for their one book, and no evidence of that event is to be found anywhere else.

> You and many of the Jesus Seminar folks

Whoever *they* are.


> the enlightenment experience has shown that many things once thought miraculous have been shown to have quite natural explanations. But such Newtonian based thinking is shown to be bankrupt by new discoveries in quantum theory, chaos, non-locality and anthropic bias reasoning.

Uh... no. Quantum theory hardly is useful for demonstrating miracles. Quantum tunnelling and teleportation, zero-point energy, Heisenberg uncertainty and virtual particle pairs say nothign with respect to the existence or non-existence of gods and miracles; they are just part of the natural world. A part of the natural world we are comign to understand, and will soon enough be able to *use*.

> We know, definatively, that what was tested by radiocarbon dating was not a representative sample of the Shroud.

You do NOT know that definitively, not until you carbon date the rest of the shroud.