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To: Aliska
I am not offended by your attempts to discredit the Holy Fire. Deliberate deceptions are nothing new for us, and I am first among sinners.

The Orthodox are not free from sin, and I have said here before that we are contentious. If you think your critical thinking skills are reliable, though, you might want to take a second look at what you have posted. The Armenians are not Orthodox. And it is funny to me how quickly you accept the truth of the secular press...I am thinking of the many times those in your church have indignantly posted about the same issue. But only in reference to your own church, of course. So much for critical thinking.

45 posted on 04/12/2004 12:13:33 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Destro; Aliska; All
The biggest arguments against a fraud, however, are not the testimonies of the shifting patriarchs.

"The biggest challenges confronting the critics are the thousands of independent testimonies by pilgrims whose candles were lit spontaneously in front of their eyes without any possible explanation. According to our investigations, it has never been possible to film any of the candles or oillamps igniting by themselves. However, I am in the possession of a video filmed by a young engineer from Bethlehem, Souhel Nabdiel. Mr. Nabdiel has been present at the ceremony of the Holy Fire since his early childhood. In 1996 he was asked to film the ceremony from the balcony of the dome of the Church. Present with him on the balcony were a nun and four other believers. The nun stood at the right hand of Nabdiel. On the video one can see how he films down on the crowds. At a certain point all lights are turned off – it is time for the Patriarch to enter the tomb and take the Holy Fire. While he is still inside the tomb one suddenly hears a scream of surprise and wonder originating from the nun standing next to Nabdiel. The camera begins to shake, as one hears the excited voices of the other people present on the balcony. The camera now turns to the right, whereby it is possible to contemplate the cause of the emotion. A big candle, held in the hand of the Russian nun, takes fire in front of all people present before the patriarch comes out of the tomb. With shaking hands she holds the candle while over and over making the sign of the Cross in awe of the potent she has witnessed. This video appears to be the closest one gets to an actual filming of the miracle."

And into infinity could I continue to post writings such as these to "support" the truth of the miracle. It is only the choice of which writing to believe, in the end. So what is the point of posting them at all? And specifically what (or who) motivates those who feel a need to discredit the Holy Fire?
I leave you to continue the discussion without my contributions, because you will certainly all come to agreement, based on your mutual reliance on "critical thinking" or science, or any one of the many other humanist idols of the west. :-)
May His peace be with you.

46 posted on 04/12/2004 12:36:11 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
What is so terrible about critical thinking? Do you never question anything?

Please don't refer to "my church". I haven't been there in years, due in part to my "critical thinking"; i.e., not accepting everything shoved at me and if you don't protect yourself, you will get things shoved at you that fall into the category of myths and fables mixed in with gospel truth.

Now it is my turn to be offended because I dared to question.

48 posted on 04/12/2004 1:27:51 PM PDT by Aliska
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