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I didn't mean to give offense here, but life has taught me that I must think critically. I posted the other articles because I never accept anything from only one source. I can see the possible bias in the Guardian article, the quoting of only one naysayer, and suspect some bias from catholic sources, but one must press on anyway. Then I saw what Polycarp posted and thought uh oh, this is going to get ugly. But he has a right to post what he finds and we ought to be mature enough to discuss all aspects of this rationally and draw our own conclusions.

The truth trumps all. If it is a true miracle, it will stand the test of scrutiny. Until then, or until I can get there to witness it with my own eyes. I have learned that sometimes even witnesses cannot be trusted. I am *not* accusing your friends of lying, but I do *know* that when you get in a super-charged atmosphere, strange things start happening.

There are aspects of the behavior of those involved that are disturbing, and I am having trouble with *some* of it, not the least of which are the 200 people trampled in the 19th century.

Difficulties:

1. Only the priest and maybe one other priest go into the sealed room. The orthodox are accustomed to this because of their liturgy, but with protestants and catholics, things tend to be done more openly.

2. The petty, childish bickering turf war on the part of those who should know better on all sides.

3. The trampling of the 200.

4. Wondering how the authorities whom I assume are not believers are persuaded to participate and what that is about.

5. The one priest was quoted as admitting he had a lighter, like he needed a backup plan. Blowing out a rival's candle sounds a little childish. Actually I think there is a spiritual message there, too.

I'm truly sorry if I hit a nerve, but here we are talking about fire and I have been badly burned about other things like this, and the last thing I need is to be deceived again, especially by people I don't really know on the internet.

Yes, true to form, I found the positive article in the orthodox newsgroup and gullible little me grabs onto it and thinks this is really wonderful and wishing that it is really true, no matter whose turf it occurred on. Then, true to form from, I start asking *myself* questions and figured if I asked you, you couldn't be objective because of where you are in this. It would be somewhat like asking a Mormon if the golden plates were real.

Whether the Patriarch requires a lighter or not has no bearing on the holiness of the fire, IMHO. Because all matter and the chemical energy contained in it and the human ingenuity employed in combining them to produce matches and butane lighters are all created by God ex nihilo, and because all are part of the creation redeemed in the Resurrection, the hankering after a timely "new" miracle every year seems somehow to miss the point.

The same website that posts pictures of the miracle (which I refrenced) also has that doubting article from the Guardian - Orthodox are not unafraid to be skeptical or to question while praising the miracle.