[ultima ratio]

The Holy See is the source of the malady in the Church, not the remedy. The problem is that it is no longer fully Catholic. Its offices are comprised of some men who are Catholic and some who are apostates. The Pope himself is heterodox, unclear, inconsistent--and liberal. He is in opposition to his preconciliar predecessors.

The solution is not to remain in the Novus Ordo Church but to return to the Catholic Church--wherever it exists, in pockets of traditional faith around the world. We must be Catholics in faith first, obedient second! If the Holy See will not lead us in orthodoxy, we should not follow it into heterodoxy.

[drstevej]

***“Certainly, we will preserve the basic elements, the bread, the wine, but all else will be changed according to local traditions: words, gestures, colors, vestments, chants, architecture, decor. The problem of liturgical reform is immense.”

--Pope John Paul, while still Bishop of Krakow, as quoted in Mon Ami: Karol Wojtyla. P. 220
***

Amazing statement. Does have a Proddy ring to it.

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[StAthanasiustheGreat]

While John Paul II might not be a traditionalist or conservative enough, he is not a liberal, especially a liberal like the late Bernadin.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Wonderful post! Thank you!

[Unam Sanctam]

As usual you display your schismatic views for all to see, using the term "Novus Ordo Church" to refer to the Catholic Church, and actively promoting schism (this is far beyond quietly going to a Tridentine mass) by encouraging others in disobedience to an orthodox Pope, and saying that the Holy See is leading people to heterodoxy. You ought to be ashamed of your lies and the hatred you incite against the Holy Father, who is perfectly orthodox.

[Dajjal]

According to the CWN.com news story, the new document from Rome dealing with the liturgy will not mandate any disciplinary measures against liturgical abuses. It will merely call for an adherence to existing norms by “proper training” in the liturgy. If true, this is actually worse than Inaestimabile Donum.

Dorlesky bump

[awick]

I don't understand your reasoning. I assume by Novus Ordo Church you are referring to some Tridentine-type Mass. I've got news for you. Jesus never spoke Latin! Peter never spoke Latin. The Apostles never spoke Latin! If anything, by taking your arguments that the Church is moving away from doctrine, it did the same thing when the Tridentine Mass was adopted. The first Mass where Jesus gave us His Body and Blood was not spoken in Latin, but Aramaic. It was what became the Latin Church that one could say moved away from tradition to begin with. So if we are to remain to tradition, then we should all speak Aramiac at Mass.

You also promote schism, which Jesus clearly spoke against by praying to the Father that we all remain one! Yes, the Eucharistic real presence is not believed in by many Catholics this day - and it is truly sad. But let me tell you there is a tide turning with more and more youth turning back to the Church and doctrine. This is not due to a bunch of people yearning for Latin, but for those heeding the call of the Pope to "be not afraid" and encounter Christ.

On the fact that some Church officials as you claim are apostates, I would have to agree. BUT look at the Bible. Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' trusted. He saw his miracles with his own eyes and yet he turned away by stealing and ultimately betraying our Savior to death. So, yes, there are probably those who you would call apostates in the Catholic Church just like Judas. BUT I would be willing to bet there are just the same proportion in the Baptist, Lutheran, Orthodox, or your Novus Ordo Church as well.

I do disagree with your challenge of the Pope's authority. You are promoting schism and disobedience which is in contradiction of the first Vatican Council which formally outlined Papal Infallibility. One must have faith that the Holy Spirit is leading the Church as Jesus said he will never abandon his Church. There are those, however, who abandon Jesus and his Church, which is why we sadly have over 28,000 denominations of whom many stress the salvation of their Church members and the damnation of the others.

Bottom line. Don't let people appeal to your emotions, it is the first sign of an illogical statement. If all we do is nitpick the rules and see who is following what then we lose sight of the true dimension JESUS in the Eucharist and we become Pharisees of a sort, the very people who killed Jesus, except we will do it by sowing disunity and disobedience to God and the Church Jesus founded.

[ksen]

We must be Catholics in faith first, obedient second! If the Holy See will not lead us in orthodoxy, we should not follow it into heterodoxy.

How can you be a Catholic without a Pope? Isn't that one of the basic definitions of a Catholic: one who is in communion with the Bishop of Rome?

[nika]

The Pope himself is heterodox, unclear, inconsistent--and liberal. He is in opposition to his preconciliar predecessors.
--ultima ratio

Is that so? Well let's consider the words of one of his preconciliar predecessors:

...

the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.

Bishops, for their part, have the right and duty carefully to watch over the exact observance of the prescriptions of the sacred canons respecting divine worship.

Private individuals, therefore, even though they be clerics, may not be left to decide for themselves in these holy and venerable matters,

involving as they do the religious life of Christian society along with the exercise of the priesthood of Jesus Christ and worship of God; concerned as they are with the honor due to the Blessed Trinity, the Word Incarnate and His august mother and the other saints, and with the salvation of souls as well.

For the same reason no private person has any authority to regulate external practices of this kind,

which are intimately bound up with Church discipline and with the order, unity and concord of the Mystical Body and frequently even with the integrity of Catholic faith itself.
--Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, Nov. 20, 1947

Now let's analyze his preconciliar remarks. The first thing to notice is that Pope John Paul II has the authority to regulate the liturgy and you don't. Your lame opinion as a "private person" really doesn't matter as "no private person has any authority to regulate external practices of this kind." Can you understand that? It doesn't matter what you think. You have no authority. What matters is what the Successor of St. Peter thinks.

These remarks of Pius XII were made long before Vatican II and did not represent new thinking, they only reiterated what has always been true: The Successor of St. Peter "alone enjoys the right to ... introduce and approve new rites."

The liturgy was in Greek for several centuries before it was changed to Latin. The Successor of St. Peter had the right to make that change. No doubt that upset those who liked the Greek liturgy and there is also no doubt that some of them left the Church over it and wasted the rest of their silly lives claiming the Pope was wrong and they were right.

[solitas]

It's interesting to see all the discussion, debate, defense, and destruction that goes on over the matter of an organization steering it's adherents away from 'praying _to_ God' toward 'praying _at_ God'.

What? All of the sudden it's "wrong" and "sinful" to do something in a particular manner after God has, apparently, had no problems with it for the past several hundred years? That's why _I_ left for 'better pastures': they stopped acting like 'The Church' and started acting like 'a church'.

Thank you for your choices of the articles you post.