An unscientific poll RE; Credence of Creeds(AKA a vanity)

self | 3/31/2004 | conservonator

[conservonator]

Another FReeper and I are engaged in a discussion on another thread and the subjects of creeds came up. From personal experience I know that there are people who consider them selves Christians and refuse to recite any creeds including the Apostles and Nicene creeds for various reasons and some even reject portions of said creeds. Ever mindful of the questionable nature of anecdotal evidence used to support or advance a position, I would like to take a very unscientific poll (ok, so it’s not much better than my personal anecdotal evidence) to find out if all Christians accept all the beliefs contained in both of the creeds mentioned earlier

Here are the creeds

Apostles Creed

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.

And now the Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

So, do you accept all, some or none of the tenets espoused by these creeds?

[conservonator]

see post #17

[conservonator]

see post #17. And don't you find it curious that nearly everyone has found it either difficult or of no interest to give a simple yes or no answer?

[HarleyD]

Yikes! Now I'm really confused because the article I posted in #5 says:

“The Nicene Creed is accepted by almost all Protestant, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, and it offers a basis for unity. Unfortunately, however, it has also been at the center of a controversy between Western and Eastern churches.”

I’ll have to verify.

[Quester]

see post #17.

So you assume the respondent identifies as a protestant ?

I don't think that he/she does.

And don't you find it curious that nearly everyone has found it either difficult or of no interest to give a simple yes or no answer?

Actually I don't find it to be so.

The response may, simply, point to a disinterest in a simple avowal/disavowal of the creeds.

I do note that this particular (non)response appears to cut across the lines of church-identity.

[Pyro7480]

The Eastern Orthodox, and some of the Eastern Catholic Churches, say the Nicene Creed without the "Filioque," or as you put it, "the expanded version."

[conservonator]

Nate is nither Catholic nor is he a LDS.

If you refuse to face the reality of the situation it does not change the reality of the situation.

[Quester]

Nate is nither Catholic nor is he a LDS.

And you construe that this is the definition of a Protestant ?

If you refuse to face the reality of the situation it does not change the reality of the situation.

To what 'situation' do you refer ?

[HarleyD]

"No Protestant has given you a simple yes or no?!?

Excuse me! What do I look like chop liver! I gave you a "Yes". (Please see post #5.)

All the Protestants I know believe in the Nicene Creed. As pointed out, the area of contention isn't among Protestants but among the Western and Eastern Catholic Church. A fact you seem to wish to ignore.

But posting unscientific polls and then making faulty, if not fallacious, assumptions seems to be the norm for some.

[conservonator]

And you construe that this is the definition of a Protestant ?

Let's see...If someone is not a Catholic or an Orthodox yet claims to be a Christian...Yes, I use the term Protestant to identify non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christians. (LDS and JW are not to my knowledge, Christians )

To what 'situation' do you refer ?

The disunity of agreement regarding what is and is not central to the faith.

[HarleyD]

Rather ironic and sad that Protestants who believe in the creeds of the early church are consider heretics and the Catholics who can't agree on them are consider bethern.

Oh, well...as long as they kiss the Pope's ring I guess.

[conservonator]

I'm not the one who said that all Protestants agree with all aspects of the two creeds, Quester did. This is merely an attempt to take a small and admittedly unscientific snapshot of the sentiment regarding that ascertation here on FR. As far as the filioque debate, the Church deems either form acceptable so it's a moot point.

[Titanites]

the area of contention isn't among Protestants but among the Western and Eastern Catholic Church.

No, the area of contention is between the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Both accept the Nicene creed, but the Orthodox don't accept the westernized version with the filioque.

[Quester]

And you construe that this is the definition of a Protestant ?

Let's see...If someone is not a Catholic or an Orthodox yet claims to be a Christian...Yes, I use the term Protestant to identify non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christians. (LDS and JW are not to my knowledge, Christians )

There are a number of persons who claim Christianity who, yet, reject the labels Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

True Protestants (by self-definition) confess to a core set of essential beliefs (at the very least ... those outlined in the Apostles'/Nicene creeds).

In truth, such defines us as surely as Catholics are defined by their allegiance to the Pope.

We just tend to be more inclusive (we use the scriptures as our basis for christian inclusivity).

[HarleyD]

That is NOT what my two articles on two different websites that I have referred to says. I'm not saying that you're wrong but I have looked through a number of websites and they all say the same thing. If you could provide me with a different reference for verification that supports what you are saying I would appreciate it.

[Quester]

I'm not the one who said that all Protestants agree with all aspects of the two creeds, Quester did. This is merely an attempt to take a small and admittedly unscientific snapshot of the sentiment regarding that ascertation here on FR.

... and, so far ... the only self-avowed Protestant (HarleyD) to respond agrees with all the points of the (2) creeds in question.

That's (2), if you count me.

And no Protestant has disavowed the creeds.

[Titanites]

Preliminary background: the filioque (Latin for "And the Son") is the theological notion that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, Jesus. This clause is included in the Nicene Creed - seen as a legitimate development - in the Western Catholic Church, but not in the Eastern Orthodox Church, which regards it as a late corruption and heresy.

[conservonator]

No wonder you think all protestants agree on the central issues of the faith! You have decided that only those agreeing with your positions are "true" Protestants. So can you identify these groups for me? Or maybe it would be easier to list those groups that fall outside your definition of "protestant". And what about "independent bible believing Christians"? They reject the term "protestant" but insist that they are real Christians nonetheless.

All this diverse unity confuses me.

[Titanites]

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Do all Protestant denominations believe in regenerative baptism?

[HarleyD]

Thanks for finding this. As I said earlier, and even after reading ALL these different websites, I can't understand why all this fuss about the Nicene Creed.

[Quester]

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Do all Protestant denominations believe in regenerative baptism?

Yes ... this one ...

Luke 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: