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Thank you, see my #28..... In fact, see also my #32 ~~ by kosta50

I saw your #28, and I thank you for your #32.

I still don't get it.

I'm happily prepared to admit the ancient and valuable usage of Icons for Instruction, Contemplation, and Meditation, but I still don't get the "Veneration and Prayers" bit.

I know that the Eastern Orthodox tell me that Departed Saints are not dead, but merely departed. They're absolutely right on this. And it is certainly true that we should ask our living brethren here on this Earth to pray for us.

But Samuel regarded it as a very greivous moral offense for Saul to call up his spirit, and seek Prayers through him. Why? I don't know. But Samuel didn't like it one bit.

Maybe it has something to do with the Resurrection. It is true, amongst we who Live in the Flesh upon the Earth, that I may derive benefit from your prayers for me. But in regard to the Departed, though it is True that they *are not Dead* -- if I should seek Prayers as I would from one who is currently standing beside me in the Flesh, maybe it is only appropriate that I seek Prayers only from the One who is Departed and yet Glorified in Flesh, the One who is Resurrected already.

At least, that would explain to me why it was a very greivous Sin for Saul to call upon the departed spirit of Samuel for Prayer. Perhaps we who are in the flesh must ask for the prayers of those with whom we share our current experience in flesh -- eachother, and the Glorified-but-Incarnate Jesus.

I don't know (I honestly don't).

But what I do know is this: Jesus is ready and willing to receive the prayers of we who dwell upon the Earth; whereas Samuel, departed from the Earth, considered it a greivous moral sin for Saul to call upon him to offer Prayers.

I'm not sure that I understand all the pneumatological mechanics involved, but knowing that Jesus is ready and willing to receive my prayers -- then for myself, I think it best not to disturb the Departed Saints as they are worshipping in Heaven, offer my Prayers to Jesus Alone, and stay on the safe side.

Best, OP

Thank you, OP. The theological aspects of the intercession of Saints, and Angels, and the distinction between the worship of God and veneration of Saints and Angels is not a simple subject. I am sure you, of all people, are keenly aware of that. I will throw in some ideas, because more detailed arguments would be to extensive for this medium.

The Orthodox share the belief of all Christians that Christ is the only mediator for the reconciliation between man and God.

The Church believes that the Saints, having prayed for the members of the Church while on earth, do so in Heaven. But you are right: the intercession of the Saints for the moral uprgithness and betterment of the Militant members is not clearly stated in the Scripture.

Angels, on the other hand, who are also created beings, intercede (Zech 1:12-13)

"The angel of the Lord said 'O Lord pf hosts, how long wilt though have no mercy...' And the Lord answered gracious and comforting words to the angel who talked with me." and Tobit 12:12, LXX

"So now, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I [angel] brought the remembrance of your prayer before the Holy One." and Luke 15:10

Our Lord Jesus Christ says "I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The distinction between veneration and worship is likewise very clear. Veneration is rightful expression of honor for those whose faith and pious life are deemed worthy of God's glory. Worship and adoration belong to God alone. Saints are commemorated. The worship of Saints and Angles is forbidden in Scripture (Rev. 19:10).

Likewise, the icons and relics are honored as pious and righteous men and women of God, worthy of our respect, many of whom have died martyr's death for faith. Icons were found in the catacombs and early church walls. John of Damascus, a towering theologian, set the correct usage of icons: "honor which is given to the icon passes on the the prototype." They help imitate the virtues of the saints to glorify God. Icons are monuments.

Any thoughts?

Maybe it has something to do with the Resurrection.

Maybe.

In the Old Testament times, prior to the Resurrection, Heaven was not yet open to us. The OT saints, like Samuel were not with God, they dwelled in the place of the dead, we call it "the Limbo of the Fathers."

This is the "hell" the Apostle's Creed says that Jesus visited after His death. He collected the holy OT people and brought them to Heaven.

So, yes the Resurrection had something to do with it. The dwelling place of the holy "dead" is now Heaven and not this Limbo.

Perhaps we who are in the flesh must ask for the prayers of those with whom we share our current experience in flesh -- eachother, and the Glorified-but-Incarnate Jesus.

We consider this an unnecessary severing ofthe Body of Christ. Physical death is not an obstacle, a divider between the various parts of God's Body.

But Samuel regarded it as a very greivous moral offense for Saul to call up his spirit, and seek Prayers through him. Why? I don't know. But Samuel didn't like it one bit.

A couple of points on this:

Your memory of the story is flawed. 1 Samuel 28:15 says that Saul conjured up Samuel, not to ask for his prayers, but to fortell the future. That's totally different. Catholics and Orthodox would agree that fortunetelling is a grave sin, no matter how you do it. This particular type of fortunetelling is necromancy (fortunetelling by consulting the dead), but all forms of fortunetelling are prohibited.
Saul didn't just say a prayer to Samuel asking for his intercession, he conjured up Samuel's spirit with the aid of a medium (the "witch of Endor"). Again, trying to conjure up spirits is gravely sinful. In fact, asking for a vision from God can be a sin against faith.

In short, OP, I think your position is more reasonable than that of many Protestants (well, I could say that on a lot of topics ;-)). But I don't think the story of Saul and Samuel is a good apologetic for it, because Saul is doing things that Catholicism would condemn categorically.