[ultima ratio]

You've got to be kidding. The Novus Ordo is all about extraordinary ministers who have become all too ordinary. To suggest otherwise is to falsify reality. The sanctuary nowadays is so crowded with Novus Ordo lay ministers, most of them women, all of them dressed exactly as the priest--that the priest is practically indistinguishable unless he's sporting a beard. As for the Pontiff warning about this--he will wag his finger, but will actually impose no real discipline to curb the abuse. So they will continue--along with all the other liturgical abuses ushered in by the new age. But besides this anomaly I can think of no other change brought about by the Council that in any way has benefitted either the Church as a whole or the laity in particular.

Regarding Europe, you should be aware that there have been many exhaustive studies tracking the decline in European Catholicism in nine countries over the decades since the Council. The nine countries are Germany, Belgium, Denmark, Spain, France, Great Britain (with a sub-sample for Northern Ireland), Italy and the Netherlands. Over the decades these studies show a precipitous decline everywhere since Vatican II. Here's a quote from a recent article:

"Continued decline of Catholicism, renewal of 'soft beliefs' [vague spirituality attached to no religion per se, such as a belief in survival after death, etc.].
The data confirm a decline in Catholicism in terms of decreased attendance at confession and mass. (Table 5) However, a percentage of people who state they no longer belong to a religion still have strong beliefs, and their numbers are higher than those who profess atheism. Ours is an age more of religious indifference than rejection. In addition, belief in the central tenets of Christianity (Table 6) is declining, but not as greatly as ADHERENCE TO CATHOLICISM. We are in an age of 'possibilities' (it is possible that God exists), an age of 'soft beliefs' rather than rejection of God. Religious values seem to be able to make sense for some people today, who adhere less and less to an established creed but freely compile their own set of beliefs. New beliefs emerge, particularly among young people, in which belief in a life after death tends to be on the rise." (Isuma, "Values of the French: a Quantitative Approach. Vol 1, No. 2, Autumn, 2000).

Recently the Pope addressed the crisis in Europe which has steadily worsened over his pontificate. He called the loss of the Catholic faith across the board a "silent apostasy." I call it a dereliction on his part. Liberal Catholicism has failed utterly. So too has the Council. Big time. But the Pontiff clings to both and still awaits his "springtime" even while the winter deepens.

You know, I can tell from your posts you haven't got much background to justify the claims you make. For instance, do you know the role played by Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago in pushing the gay agenda and having gays elevated to the American episcopacy? If not, I suggest you start doing some research on this, the largest of the gay networks. You might want to check the website of Roman Catholic Faithful.com.

[GirlShortstop]

But the Pontiff clings to both and still awaits his "springtime" even while the winter deepens.

Did you ever stop to consider ultima, before you posit negatively about JPII... who has more Faith, you or the Holy Father?

[Desdemona]

Recently the Pope addressed the crisis in Europe which has steadily worsened over his pontificate. He called the loss of the Catholic faith across the board a "silent apostasy." I call it a dereliction on his part.

How can it be his fault when he is constantly preaching to the people and the bishops won't obey him? I'd pin this stuff on the bishops, myself. It was under their watch that education disappeared and the seminaries atrophied. The bishops, as a whole, have been grossly negligent, IMO. And what is the pope to do when his staff doesn't tell him of problems or shields him from what is going on out in the dioceses? What is he supposed to do when the bishops stand before him and lie?

There's a lot of blame to go around, but at this point the pope is guilty of trying to please too many people.

[Desdemona]

Liberal Catholicism has failed utterly. So too has the Council. Big time.

Well, since the liberals hijacked the council and used it to install their agenda under a weak pope, yes. It was not meant to be the way it turned out. And again, the bishops disobeyed.

[dangus]

Ultima,

But yes, I have heard about Bernardin and his gays. But you are saying you have a sanctuary filled with women garbed in priestly robes? The closest I've ever seen is at one college, the EMEs wore beige robes; it gave the impression that they were altar servers. I didn't like it because they looked a little like Druidic priestesses, but there was no mistaking them for priests.