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To: hopespringseternal
As far as adult baptism, I said of its nature that they submitted to, or permitted (or, if you think those words too passive, sought out) the baptism.

But the bible does not say seeking to be baptized remits your sins.

Nor does it say that baptism itself remits your sins. Hence the note about the meaning of the word 'eis' in Strong's Greek Lexicon, specifically referring to Acts 2:38.

The act of seeking baptism is not what we are discussing. You say that baptism is a work, therefore not required for salvation. I have asked again and again what that work is, since you insist that the correct definition of "for" is arrived at based on the premise that baptism is a work.

The rite of baptism itself is a ritual. In assuming that Peter commands, "Be baptized for the remission of sins," by which you mean, "Be baptized in order to obtain the remission of sins," you are saying that baptism is required in order to be saved. This, in and of itself, means that you are trusting a "dead work" (the term the author of Hebrews, in particular, uses to describe rituals), at least in part, for your salvation. You want my definition of a 'work'? It is trusting in anything other than Jesus' atonement for your salvation, even partially. It is faith in anything but the blood of Jesus to save you from your sins. As it relates to Biblical theology, salvation by works is believing that anything else than "grace through faith" saves.

If it is a work, surely you can provide the actual action taken by the person during baptism? Hint: It is the same as any person being buried.

The Bible says that the "actual action" of a baptismal candidate is precisely that of being baptized--that is, washed. The symbolic action of water baptism is being baptized by the Holy Spirit.

but the Bible makes quite clear that it is "by grace through faith that you are saved," not by "grace through faith and baptism."

That sort of absurd reductionism can take you any place you want to go.

Heh. It's not reductionism when it's spelled out in the following verse ("not as a result of works, that no one should boast").

Besides, Paul was addressing Judaizing teachers when he spoke of salvation by faith. You should read James, who was speaking to the original adherents of "faith alone." Hint: The only place the words "faith alone" are found in the bible, they are preceded with "not by."

Just because the exact words are not there is no excuse for a total excision of that doctrine from your creed. There is a maxim that many different men have held to, that "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone." Your problem is that you are confusing "dead works," that is, rituals, with "good works," which is to say, the fruits of the Spirit.

Paul says quite clearly that "[B]y grace are you saved; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9). And James never disagrees. He sets up what he means by "works" at ch. 2:14 of his epistle when he says, "What use it it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?" (James 2:14-16.) First off, note that he does not say that the man actually has faith, only that he "says he has faith." As vv. 15 and 16 show, when he explains what he means by works, they are moral actions, "good works" that come from a heart filled with God's love. This has nothing to do with baptism, since there is no ethical character to the action. You are not helping others by being baptized; you are only, on even the most outlandish Baptistic scheme, identifying yourself with Christ's death.

In fact, James' main point is spelled out in verse 22, "You see that faith was working with his works [Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac], and as a result of the works, faith was completed." James is not saying that faith and works are both the grounds of salvation. He is saying that faith isn't complete without works (which, as the incident with Abraham and Isaac shows, was a natural extension of trusting God, that is, having faith in him).

25 posted on 03/27/2004 7:10:53 PM PST by The Grammarian (Saving the world one typo at a time.)
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To: The Grammarian
Nor does it say that baptism itself remits your sins. Hence the note about the meaning of the word 'eis' in Strong's Greek Lexicon, specifically referring to Acts 2:38.

It says exactly that in Acts 2:38 and many other places. I have posted lists many times, for all the good it does. Each and every case is deconstructed so Mr. Faith Alone can say, "see, this verse doesn't mean what it says" in the same way you have deconstructed Acts 2:38 to mean the opposite of what it says.

Baptism is not a work, because it is a burial. No corpse ever works at its burial, it is an inert thing. Likewise, the person being baptized does not "work." There is nothing for him to do!

But what about the baptizer who works? Nowhere in scripture is any significance placed on the baptizer. His work is merely incidental and physical.

So where is the work? This is where the faith-aloners miss the boat. The work of baptism that saves was accomplished by Christ on the cross. Paul says that if we have been baptized, we have been baptized into the death of Christ, and being buried with Christ we are raised with Him. It follows then that if we have not been baptized, we have not been buried with Christ and therefore have not been raised to walk a new life!

"Faith alone" distorts Paul's rejection of the dead rituals of Judaism into rejection of the living rituals of Christianity, commanded by Christ Himself! Christian rituals such as baptism do not save by the action of the Christian, but by the action of Christ. No one who believes baptism is necessary believes that it is anything without Christ. No one believes that baptism "earns" your salvation for you. Those are straw men.

James flatly and directly rejects salvation by faith alone. No amount of deconstruction can change the clear and simple meaning of James 2.

27 posted on 03/27/2004 8:58:08 PM PST by hopespringseternal
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