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To: hopespringseternal
I didn't mangle Acts 2:38 to take baptism out of it. You stated that it was necessary to reinterpret the Greek, in order to make sure salvation was not a work (in disagreement with the preponderance of scholars who have translated that word the same way in a variety of translations.)

Actually, as I pointed out, there was no "reinterpreting" going on. The word in the Greek can be translated "for." In English, "for" can mean either, "because" (For unto us a child is born...Because unto us a child is born) or "in order to" (he got a grant for studying medicine...he got a grant in order to study medicine). As far as your "preponderance of scholars," that's a red herring, since the English word "for" can mean either "because" or "in order to." Just because people commit eisegesis by taking 'for' as 'in order to,' does not mean that the word 'for' is out of place in that passage.

I merely challenged you to produce a "work" that the baptized person does at baptism which you believe would constitute "earning their salvation." So far you keep stressing the passive nature of baptism, meaning the person being baptized does nothing.

Actually, I stressed the passive nature of infant baptism. But I'm not the one saying that infant baptism saves the infant intrinsically. As far as adult baptism, I said of its nature that they submitted to, or permitted (or, if you think those words too passive, sought out) the baptism. The problem with the interpretation that you are arguing for (which I will call 'your interpretation' henceforth, though whether you believe this doctrine or are just disagree with my argument is besides the point), is that taking "be baptized for the remission of sins" to mean "be baptized in order to gain the remission of sins" is that it goes against the tenor of the New Testament: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved," the Evangelists write, "But he who believes not is damned already." There is no mention of baptism as a condition of salvation here. Baptism may have a rightful place in Christian symbolism and ritual, but the Bible makes quite clear that it is "by grace through faith that you are saved," not by "grace through faith and baptism."

So lets get this straight 1) when you are baptized, you don't do anything yourself. 2) It is necessary to reinterpret nearly every major translation in order to make sure we don't associate remission of sins with the (nonexistent, see 1 ) work of baptism.

See above.

Huh? How can not doing anything be a work that earns your salvation?

It's a matter of where the faith is. If you expect Jesus to save you because you have faith that he will, that is Biblically-placed faith. But if you believe that Jesus will save you because you have faith that he will--and because you were baptized (which is the natural interpretation of Acts 2:38 if one views it as "be baptized in order to obtain the remission of sins")--then you are relying on your own actions in seeking out baptism, as well as on Jesus' atonement, to save you, and hence looking to "dead works" for your salvation.

23 posted on 03/27/2004 2:46:17 PM PST by The Grammarian (Saving the world one typo at a time.)
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To: The Grammarian
As far as adult baptism, I said of its nature that they submitted to, or permitted (or, if you think those words too passive, sought out) the baptism.

But the bible does not say seeking to be baptized remits your sins. The act of seeking baptism is not what we are discussing. You say that baptism is a work, therefore not required for salvation. I have asked again and again what that work is, since you insist that the correct definition of "for" is arrived at based on the premise that baptism is a work.

If it is a work, surely you can provide the actual action taken by the person during baptism? Hint: It is the same as any person being buried.

but the Bible makes quite clear that it is "by grace through faith that you are saved," not by "grace through faith and baptism."

That sort of absurd reductionism can take you any place you want to go. Besides, Paul was addressing Judaizing teachers when he spoke of salvation by faith. You should read James, who was speaking to the original adherents of "faith alone." Hint: The only place the words "faith alone" are found in the bible, they are preceded with "not by."

24 posted on 03/27/2004 6:01:45 PM PST by hopespringseternal
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