***If you really think the Bible tells you which books belong in it, you need to point out where it gives you the list.***
1. I haven't claimed that the Bible gives a list of the books in the Bible.
2. A definition (as opposed to a caricature) of "Sola Scriptura" would benefit our discussion. For our purposes lets use this definition:
Scripture alone is the primary and absolute source of authority, the final court of appeal, for all doctrine and practice. Scripture is infallible, sufficient, and clear in all it's major doctrines.
***Can't you give a straight answer?***
You are a very zealous person and that is an commendable thing in the lukewarm days in which we find ourselves. But just because I'm not giving you the answer that you want doesn't mean I'm not giving you answers.
I hope you do not perceive my comments as a personal attack on you. They are not intended to be so. I am enjoying our conversation as it is (hopefully) causing us to examine the grounds of our faith.
What I am doing is giving you principles from the scripture that cast a different light than you may be use to on the subject we are discussing. You are claiming sacred tradition gives the scriptures their authority. I am claiming that the scriptures and authoritative intrinsically and that the Church recognizes that intrinsic authority. The issue, of course, is authority.
***should be able to give reason for their beliefs, rather than being embarrassed by logical inconsistencies.***
Let me restate the principles regarding authority I have used so far (and I have many more) in case I haven't been clear.
The example of John the Baptist and Jesus illustrates the principle that community of the faithful (i.e. church) can RECOGNIZE the direct intervention of God in the world (i.e. in the life of Jesus or in the Holy Spirit's work in men to produce the God-breathed scriptures) but they do not have AUTHORITY OVER Gods direct intervention.
The example of the Old Testament is that the books of the Old Testament were recognized by Jesus and even by the OT authors themselves to be the Word of God BEFORE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EXISTED. Therefore to claim that only the Catholic Church can decide what is and what isn't scripture is shown to be false. This illustrates that there is a large body of scripture that is out from under the requirements of being recognized by the Catholic Church as scripture. The people who recognize this body of scripture as the Word of God are people that the Catholic Church recognizes as authorities (Jesus, Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah etc..) and therefore the Catholic Church can not disagree with their opinion - but can only recognize it.
Here is another one for you to consider. You claim that sacred tradition is true, inspired and authoritative. On what extra-scriptural authority do you basis your belief in the legitimacy of sacred tradition?
Me: Consequently, they become interested in distinguishing true doctrine from false.
You: True indeed! But they can also fall prey to unprofitable hair-splitting and dithering over issues upon which the scripture is silent.
We were talking about the doctrine of transubstantiation. Neither Catholics nor your Protestant brethren would consider that "hair-splitting and dithering over issues upon which the scripture is silent."
You: A definition (as opposed to a caricature) of "Sola Scriptura" would benefit our discussion. For our purposes lets use this definition: Scripture alone is the primary and absolute source of authority, the final court of appeal, for all doctrine and practice. Scripture is infallible, sufficient, and clear in all it's major doctrines.
As I have pointed out, you can't say you believe that doctrine without a logical inconsistency. You have to have some authority, call it "Authority X," to tell you which books belong in the Bible and which books don't. "X" could be your church, your tradition, your personal opinion, etc. "X" then, is your real authority, that is, your authority behind your other supposed authority.
Here is another one for you to consider. You claim that sacred tradition is true, inspired and authoritative. On what extra-scriptural authority do you basis your belief in the legitimacy of sacred tradition?
Secondarily on the authority of the Church. Ultimately on the authority of Christ.
Now will you tell us who told you which books belong in the Bible and which books don't?