"The Passion" Isn't Anti-Semitic, Says Vatican Aide

ZENIT ^ | 2004-03-11

[presidio9]

The other point of view is that some of the mob might have been exposed to the New Testament and come away with a bias against all Jews because of the murder of Yeshua of Nazareth. I would certainly not blame genuine Christians for this but in the eyes of the victims it may have been difficult to think that the Reverend Al Sharpton was not a Christian.

What is your basis for this? I think it gets back to the bizarre Jewish tendency to celebrate persecution as part of the religion.

Are you saying that exposure to Christianity is a bad thing because it might lead to antisemitism? It sure sounds like you are.

[PeoplesRep_of_LA]

1881-1884 Pogroms sweep southern Russia

Yeah yeah, I read your link. What it doesn't show is that these things were going on in Europe during the 1800s. (Russia is not really Europe) If the word became associated with that, it must have been unique. More over, genocide in Europe against an ethnic or religious minority is hardly isolated.

Its very easy to look at your point in all of these incedents of Jewish Genocide is coming back to my original point, hinting that the practice of Christianity could lead to Jewish genocide. If that is not your point, you need to be more upfront in distancing yourself from it.

Tell you what hotshot, my family fled that same area 40 years after that the date you are telling me about. My Grandpa got out--the rest of his family was slaughtered by the Soviets. There aren't even reliable numbers for the many millions of my people killed in Red October.You don't see me wearing that on my sleave, attacking anyone speaking Russian in my neighborhood because they should be "ashamed at what happened in the past." It absolutely never comes up til right now, yet it affects my life as much as anything you listed on your page of atrocities. My problem is that I'm not holding it as a grudge against people today, I get the feeling you are.

[Polybius]

In the movie Satan is portrayed as a member of the Jewish mob, and the Jews implicitly portrayed as Satan's people, none of which is in scripture.

In the movie, Satan was seen walking upon the Earth and through a mob in a city.

Since the city was Jerusalem almost 2000 years ago, Caipha's rent-a-mob (Caipha's was depicted giving out money to pay for his mob), Jesus' followers, the Pharisees, the Apostles, Mary, Caiphas, the children, the merchants, the beggars and even Jesus himself were all Jews.

A mob in 1st Century Jerusalem would be a Jewish mob. An adoring crowd in 1st Century Jerusalem would be a Jewish adoring crowd. A crowd milling about doing absolutely nothing in 1st Century Jerusalem would be a Jewish crowd milling about doing absolutely nothing.

There weren't any Celts, Koreans, Incas, Eskimos, Nepalese or Norwegians in 1st Century Jerusalem.

If we claim that portraying Satan among Jewish people in 1st Century Jerusalem in "The Passion" implicitly "portrays the Jews as Satan's people", then we must also claim that "Damned Yankees" and the book it was based on "implicitly portrays Americans in Washington, D.C. who root against the New York Yankees as Satan's people".

[ambrose]

As for the centuries that came prior, well, the total number of dead (including Jews, pagans, etc.) from the 350 years of the Inquisition is pegged at no more than 300,000, most of them in Spain, and most of that number was -not- done with the blessing of the Church but by uneducated rural peasants.

Only 300k? No big deal then, eh? What are the numbers of those who converted rather than face certain torture and death?

Historically, it has usually been the uneducated rural peasants who have been responsible for the dirty work.

[ambrose]

Are you saying that exposure to Christianity is a bad thing because it might lead to antisemitism?

Christianity has never been a problem... Churchianity, on the other hand, has...

[NewHampshireDuo]

I knew plenty of older Catholics in Brooklyn who thought it was downhill all the way after Vatican II, and they were NOT upset because "they couldn't blame the Jews for the death of Christ" anymore. They were upset about the end of the Latin mass, and what they said was a general lack of formality that set in as a result of the changes. But if one relied solely on today's newspaper stories for their information, they'd be led to believe that *all* Vatican II did was exonerate the Jewish people of deicide, when it was actually a whole series of changes that took three years to accomplish, and which many people object to even forty years later.

I was brought up Lutheran and when the Vatican II reforms went through all I was aware of was the change on meatless Fridays. However, before then I did attend one Catholic mass (our Sunday school class was going to other churches so we could (in effect) discuss what they were doing wrong.) I was, however, very impressed by the Latin mass.

Later I dated a couple of girls who were Catholic and I went to some post Vatican II masses which just seemed sort of plain relative to what I remembered of the earlier experience.

[Qwinn]

*nod* I have heard the number as low as 30,000 far more often than 300,000. The highest number I ever heard from anything approaching a credible source was 300,000, and frankly, I think 30,000 was probably far more accurate. BUT, I didn't want to risk any chance of having someone go out and post a higher figure and turn the entire discussion over how I was manipulating the data.

Glad you corrected me though, so the point could be made :)

Qwinn

[PeoplesRep_of_LA]

Third, and a lot of us are getting pretty tired at your inability to accept this at face value, because it doesn't matter. When we say that we don't blame the Jews for killing Christ, that we are all equally guilty for his death, that is exactly what we mean. No more. No less.

Read my 82, victimhood is not an exclusively Jewish situation, however in this controversy I get the impression that its almost Shadenfreuden for many Jews, particuarly liberal ones, to feel permanently victimized. Its almost become a part of their identity.

They are demanding a toll, a gratiutity, and Gibson flatly declined to give Abe Foxman a tip during preproduction. Well watch out because HERE COME THE TEARS. Now he's got the whole community outraged over-quite frankly nothing. There is no person in the world that can convince me that any whiner about this movie actually saw a scenerio of of pogroms sprouting up over America.

And if they do anywhere, who's gonna be the first to condemn it? You and me and all the other Christians. I'm so sick of this "kvetching" I could scream. Gotta let it go...forgive those who trespass against us...

[ambrose]

In the movie Satan is portrayed as a member of the Jewish mob

This is a half-truth. Satan was also portrayed as being near the Romans who were scourging Jesus. Satan was even portrayed as being near Jesus! Are you saying that Mel Gibson believes Jesus to be Satanic?

If not, your "argument" falls apart.

[Tribune7]

Here's a list of casualties from various events. Some credible sources Will Durant, Britannica have estimated the loss of life in the Inquisition to be as low as 2,000.

[Dr. Scarpetta]

bump

[Polybius]

But a much stronger case can be made against Foxman and the ADL by judging from their 91 year history. They are not an organization, honestly trying to promote inter-faith understanding. That has never been the actual thrust of their operation. Rather, they have stirred up resentment in every way they can, first on one side of the religious divide and then on the other.

Well, Ohioan, according to the May 11, 2003 issue of the (New York) Daily News, Abe Foxman's salary is $405,609 per year.

$405,609 per year.

Would you be willing to settle for Peace and Understanding and thereby "Kum-Bah-Ya" yourself out of such a paycheck? :-)

[virtude]

>The film "makes us go back to a period before the Second Vatican Council," the rabbi contended.

>>This is the statement of a propagandist- the most serious charge is tossed in casually as an assumption which is that the Church taught the Jews as a group were responsible for killing Jesus before Vatican II. This is a false, careless and insulting assertion.

Excellent point!

When I read it I couln't believe what my pupils were reading. This is a serious accusation.

[sarasmom]

I deem thee a troll!

BTW, I really dont appreciate anyone picking on Christians for their faith in Christianity.Especially trolls pretending to be Jewish.That is a particularly ugly liberal technique and rather passe.

Come hither, ugly troll.
I have no interest in turning the other cheek.
;^)

[Mamzelle]

Welcome to FR--

[John Locke]

"Now Barabbas was a revolutionary."

This is the New American Bible translation.

And so, of course, it's wrong. The original word is stasiastos, from stasis. It covers several shades of meaning, from "disputer" (mild) to "insurrectionist" (heavy - and, of course, the KJV translation). It cannot reasonably be stretched to mean "revolutionary".

[churchillbuff]

A Vatican spokesman says the film "The Passion of the Christ" cannot be considered anti-Semitic without also regarding the Gospel the same way.

WELL, DUH.

[virtude]

"The movie was sympathetic to Jews"

Indeed it was.

Excellent movie to be watched again, again and again by every Christian and non-Christian alike.

[churchillbuff]

What took them so long?

They couldn't wait much longer to come out with this statement --- or else they'd have to cancel Palm Sunday Mass worldwide - since the Passion story is read responsively on that Sunday in every Catholic parish around the globe (as well as in Anglican and, I believe, Lutheran churches). Does that mean that Foxman and ADL are insisting that Palm Sunday should be cancelled -- and maybe Easter too?