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To: RnMomof7
I have two questions:

1) Is there Scriptural support for regeneration prior to belief?

2) Calvinists see God's grace as Him enabling the will of a sinner to accept Jesus Christ as Lord. Is there Scriptural evidence for this as well?

JM
3,578 posted on 04/12/2004 9:44:26 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: JohnnyM; RnMomof7
1) Is there Scriptural support for regeneration prior to belief?

I don't like to jump into someone elses turf but you asked one of the most annoying questions that plagued me for years. It wasn't until I embraced a Reform position that I understood them.

There are two such people who were clearly regenerated (or saved) before they were born; Jeremiah and John the Baptist. (We could go into others but the references are vague.)

Please consider the following verses:

Luke 1:13-15: "But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth."

and

Jeremiah 1:4-5 "The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Now, can you explain to me that if one needs to make a "profession of faith" why these two were saved before they were born? No one has yet.

3,589 posted on 04/12/2004 10:05:32 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: JohnnyM; RnMomof7
2) Calvinists see God's grace as Him enabling the will of a sinner to accept Jesus Christ as Lord. Is there Scriptural evidence for this as well?

BTW-There are lots of references that support this theology including that faith is a gift from God and is what is needed to believe in God (you've probably heard these).

I'm still waiting for a response from Malachi on the following verse:

Deuteronomy 30:6 “The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.”

(in fairness he said he is busy and will try to answer later)

3,594 posted on 04/12/2004 10:18:01 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: JohnnyM; HarleyD
1) Is there Scriptural support for regeneration prior to belief?

Yes there is alot of it . First consider the words of Christ.

Jhn 3:3   Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.

One can not desire what he can not see or hear. One must be born of the spirit to desire Christ.

Rememeber Paul quoted the OT that no man seeks after God . Men do not seek because they are spiritually unable to see , understand or desire God.

One needs to be born of the Spirit (regenerated ) to repent, before that time we did not understand our sinful condition

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

We were not "saved" IN our sin

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

     1Cr 15:45   And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

We have to be raised from spiritual death before we can see our sin as God sees it

Eph 5:14   Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Notice the order presented here

Arise from the dead THEN Christ gives you light

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

We were all dead in sin until we repented and believed.

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Paul describes unregenerate man as continually suppressing the truth about God and replacing it with various forms of idolatry in order to serve his own sinful lusts (Rom. 1:18-32)

Can the Spirit of God inhabit an unrepentant man ? We know the Holy Spirit was sent to convict us of sin...so it would follow that one can not see his sin to confess and repent to salvation without first the action of the Holy Spirit on us. Can we pour NEW wine into an old wineskin? before the Holy Spirit can come and dwell in you , He must bring you spiritual awaking (quicking) so that he can convict you of your sin , That awaking leads to repentance and belief .

Boettner writes: “Man is a free agent but he cannot originate the love of God in his heart. His will is free in the sense that it is not controlled by any force outside of himself. As the bird with a broken wing is ‘free’ to fly but not able, so the natural man is free to come to God but not able. How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? How can he come to God when he hates Him? This is the inability of the will under which man labors.”

“So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy” (Rom. 9:16). “Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God“ (Jn. 1:13). “You did not choose me, but I chose you” (Jn. 15:16). “Why do you not understand my speech? Because you are not able to listen to my word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do” (Jn. 8:43-44). When Jesus said, “Without Me you can do nothing” (Jn. 15:5), He really meant nothing. Luther writes: “It is totally unheard of—grammar and logic to say that nothing is the same as something; to logicians, the thing is an impossibility, for the two are contradictory!”17 "

Jer 13:23   Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Rom 8:7   Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

2) Calvinists see God's grace as Him enabling the will of a sinner to accept Jesus Christ as Lord. Is there Scriptural evidence for this as well?

Jhn 6:44No man can come

Jhn 6:65   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 8:43   Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

Jhn 6:45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Here is the problem that faces us. Every man that hears the Father comes . This is consistent with Isa

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

It is God that opens eyes and ears (regenerates ) so that His word ALWAYS accomplishes what He had intended...

Mat 16:17   And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Salvation is all of God, from beginning to end

3,633 posted on 04/12/2004 11:10:14 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Broomstick Jockey)
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