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To: man of Yosemite
If there had been another way for mankind to redeem himself, surely it would have been preferred.
Mankind’s salvation is addressed in the OT. You may wish to review it.

Your other statements:

He [God] declared that the soul that sins shall die
The sinning soul will die.(Eze 18:20; Eze 18:4 ). Amen.

He also declared that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.
Is there an OT reference to that?

His mercy is keeping us all alive, but he offers eternal life to those who will believe.
Then the Gift is not “free.”

I had thought the verse was in the Old Testament
Not a chance.

but it is in Hebrews 9:22, "and without shedding of blood there is no remission."
How appropriate for this season, but it’s not in the Law. The Torah says nothing of atonement for future generations.

Jews have a day set aside once a year to atone for their sins, for all generations “And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year.”

You may not know this, but the Passover lamb is meant to be eaten (Exo 12:3-10), the sacrificed animal may not be human, neither is eating flesh nor drinking blood allowed in Judaism.

Passover is a commemorative event. One does not atone for sin during Passover.

Sin sacrifice is defined in Leviticus 4. The sacrificial animal must be an animal approved by God (humans are not), must be physically unblemished, must be done by a Levite priest, death must be due to blood loss (not suffocation), at an officially designated area (not an execution ground), the blood is poured or sprinkled on the altar.

Leviticus (22:20,24) specifically makes clear that the animal must be physically perfect and that nothing that is “bruised or crushed, or broken or cut” will be acceptable.

The animal used on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16:5-34), is not killed. The animal for that ritual of atonement of sins is a goat, a scapegoat, upon whose head are symbolically placed the sins of the world; obviously the animal of the atonement in the Law is a goat not a lamb.

That is why Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, not only by obeying the Law perfectly, but he also became the fulfilling sacrifice which the others were a shadow of.

Some Hebrew sacrifices did involve animal blood. (Lev 17:11) However, if that is true, than it should also be true that we are not allowed to drink blood (Lev. 17:10), lest it not be forgotten that even the symbolic sin is a sin (Matthew 5:28).

Going by the Law, it will also be true that one can only atone for one’s own sins “The righteous shall be credited his own righteousness, and the sinful shall have his own sin counted against him.” (Eze )

Moses tried to atone for the sins of his people, and God refused saying that he will only “blot out” those who have sinned against Him.

97 posted on 02/27/2004 9:34:52 PM PST by kosta50
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To: MarMema
ping #97
99 posted on 02/27/2004 10:14:40 PM PST by kosta50
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To: kosta50
Jesus never expects us to drink his blood, he offers the symbols of bread and wine to be eaten as a representation of our identification with his sacrifice. It represents death passing over us in the same way that the Passover lamb, whose blood was applied to the doorposts, caused God to pass by Israel. They were set at liberty from Egypt, and everyone was healed of all infirmities, enabling them to be called out of Egypt, being baptized in the Red Sea.

Jesus was bruised, but only while he was being offered up as the sacrifice. In the same way the offerings of Israel were to be perfect but were killed in their offering. God proved the sinlessness of Christ and his atonement for sin by raising him from the dead.
100 posted on 02/28/2004 9:29:38 AM PST by man of Yosemite ("When a man decides to do something everyday, that's about when he stops doing it.")
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To: kosta50
Some more thoughts on sacrifices:

Jeremiah 7
22   For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23   But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

(JPS) Isaiah 1
(10) Hear the word of YHWH, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. (11) To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith YHWH; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats. (12) When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?

(13) Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations -- I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly. (14) Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them. (15) And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.

(16) Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil; (17) Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. (18) Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (19) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land; (20) But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of YHWH hath spoken.

They were going through the motions. Making animal sacrifices but not changing their behaviors. They weren't contrite. They were misusing the ceremony. They were thinking the ceremony alone was enough, but it wasn't, YHWH expected them to show their contrition, by their actions, and how they lived their lives. They'd perform the ceremony and then go right back to sinful behavior. They placed ceremony above morality.

Kind of like going to the confessional, confessing to a sin, stating that you would try to not commit that sin in the future, but as soon as you leave church, you start right into that sin again. No real effort was put forth in trying to 'overcome' sinful behavior.

YHWH didn't want blood sacrifices, animal NOR HUMAN. YHWH wants obedience.

I also think it is very telling that when Solomon dedicates the Temple he nver mentions blood sacrifices for the atoning of sins, instead he always mentions prayer:

First Kings Chapter 8
(22) And Solomon stood before the altar of YHWH in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven; (23) and he said: 'O YHWH, the God of Israel, there is no God like Thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath; who keepest covenant and mercy with Thy servants, that walk before Thee with all their heart; (24) who hast kept with Thy servant David my father that which Thou didst promise him; yea, Thou spokest with Thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with Thy hand, as it is this day. (25) Now therefore, O YHWH, the God of Israel, keep with Thy servant David my father that which Thou hast promised him saying: There shall not fail thee a man in My sight to sit on the throne of Israel, if only thy children take heed to their way, to walk before Me as thou hast walked before Me.

(26) Now therefore, O God of Israel, let Thy word, I pray Thee, be verified, which Thou didst speak unto Thy servant David my father. (27) But will God in very truth dwell on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Thee; how much less this house that I have builded! (28) Yet have Thou respect unto the prayer of Thy servant, and to his supplication, O YHWH my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer which Thy servant prayeth before Thee this day; (29) that Thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place whereof Thou hast said: My name shall be there; to hearken unto the prayer which Thy servant shall pray toward this place.

(30) And hearken Thou to the supplication of Thy servant, and of Thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place; yea, hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling-place; and when Thou hearest, forgive. (31) If a man sin against his neighbour, and an oath be exacted of him to cause him to swear, and he come and swear before Thine altar in this house; (32) then hear Thou in heaven, and do, and judge Thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his own head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness. (33) When Thy people Israel are smitten down before the enemy, when they do sin against Thee, if they turn again to Thee, and confess Thy name, and pray and make supplication unto Thee in this house;

(34) then hear Thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of Thy people Israel, and bring them back unto the land which Thou gavest unto their fathers. (35) When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, when they do sin against Thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess Thy name, and turn from their sin, when Thou dost afflict them; (36) then hear Thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of Thy servants, and of Thy people Israel, when Thou teachest them the good way wherein they should walk; and send rain upon Thy land, which Thou hast given to Thy people for an inheritance. (37) If there be in the land famine, if there be pestilence, if there be blasting or mildew, locust or caterpillar; if their enemy besiege them in the land of their cities; whatsoever plague, whatsoever sickness there be;

(38) what prayer and supplication soever be made by any man of all Thy people Israel, who shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house; (39) then hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling-place, and forgive, and do, and render unto every man according to all his ways, whose heart Thou knowest -- for Thou, even Thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men -- (40) that they may fear Thee all the days that they live in the land which Thou gavest unto our fathers. (41) Moreover concerning the stranger that is not of Thy people Israel, when he shall come out of a far country for Thy name's sake --

(42) for they shall hear of Thy great name, and of Thy mighty hand, and of Thine outstretched arm -- when he shall come and pray toward this house; (43) hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling-place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to Thee for; that all the peoples of the earth may know Thy name, to fear Thee, as doth Thy people Israel, and that they may know that Thy name is called upon this house which I have built. (44) If Thy people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatsoever way Thou shalt send them, and they pray unto YHWH toward the city which Thou hast chosen, and toward the house which I have built for Thy name; (45) then hear Thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.

(46) If they sin against Thee -- for there is no man that sinneth not -- and Thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive unto the land of the enemy, far off or near; (47) yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they are carried captive, and turn back, and make supplication unto Thee in the land of them that carried them captive, saying: We have sinned, and have done iniquitously, we have dealt wickedly; (48) if they return unto Thee with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray unto Thee toward their land, which Thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which Thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for Thy name; (49) then hear Thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven Thy dwelling-place, and maintain their cause;

(50) and forgive Thy people who have sinned against Thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against Thee; and give them compassion before those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them; (51) for they are Thy people, and Thine inheritance, which Thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron; (52) that Thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of Thy servant, and unto the supplication of Thy people Israel, to hearken unto them whensoever they cry unto Thee. (53) For Thou didst set them apart from among all the peoples of the earth, to be Thine inheritance, as Thou didst speak by the hand of Moses Thy servant, when Thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord YHWH.'

(54) And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto YHWH, he arose from before the altar of YHWH, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread forth toward heaven. (55) And he stood, and blessed all the congregation of Israel with a loud voice, saying: (56) 'Blessed be YHWH, that hath given rest unto His people Israel, according to all that He promised; there hath not failed one word of all His good promise, which He promised by the hand of Moses His servant. (57) YHWH our God be with us, as He was with our fathers; let Him not leave us, nor forsake us;

(58) that He may incline our hearts unto Him, to walk in all His ways, and to keep His commandments, and His statutes, and His ordinances, which He commanded our fathers. (59) And let these my words, wherewith I have made supplication before YHWH, be nigh unto YHWH our God day and night, that He maintain the cause of His servant, and the cause of His people Israel, as every day shall require; (60) that all the peoples of the earth may know that YHWH, He is God; there is none else. (61) Let your heart therefore be whole with YHWH our God, to walk in His statutes, and to keep His commandments, as at this day.'

YHWH didn't want 'human' sacrifices. That's why YHWH, in Genesis 22, replaces Isaac with a Ram! What more 'visual' does one need? YHWH wanted to see if Abraham would 'obey'. When YHWH knew that Abraham meant to follow through and sacrifice his only son, YHWH called out to Abraham, and stopped him. Then YHWH brought forth a Ram, to be sacrificed.

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 12
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Isaiah 1:11
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Psalm 51
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart
, O God, thou wilt not despise.

1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Hosea 6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Throughout the Jewish scriptures, the prophets declared that repentance and charity are more pleasing to God for atonement than a blood sacrifice.

Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hosea 14
2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Sacrifices were to be replaced with PRAYER!

God tells us that he doesn't want sacrifice, Jesus tells us that he doesn't want sacrifice

Micah 6
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

YHWH didn't approve of sacrificing one's offspring.

Leviticus 20
2   Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
3   And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
4   And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
5   Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

Molech from the Hebrew
4432 Molek mo'-lek from 4427; Molek (i.e. king), the chief deity of the Ammonites:--Molech. Compare 4445.
Molech = "king"
1) the god of the Ammonites and Phoenicians to whom some Israelites sacrificed their infants in the valley of Hinnom

Deuteronomy 12
31   Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Deuteronomy 18
10   There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

Throughout the Bible this kind of sacrifice is hated by YHWH.

YHWH knew we would not be perfect, so He gave a means of atoning, when accompanied with contrition. YHWH knew it would be difficult, but He also said 'it could be done'! For those difficult times, confession, repentance, prayer and wiping away of former sins was given.

Here are just a couple of versions of a particular verse.

(NASB)
Deuteronomy 30
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.

(MSG)
Deuteronomy 30
11 This commandment that I'm commanding you today isn't too much for you, it's not out of your reach.

(NLT)
Deuteronomy 30 The Choice of Life or Death
11"This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you to understand or perform.

(CEV)
Deuteronomy 30
Choose Life, Not Death
Moses said to Israel:
11 You know God's laws, and it isn't impossible to obey them.

116 posted on 02/29/2004 7:10:28 AM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Isaiah 47:4 - Our Redeemer, YHWH of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel.)
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