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To: kosta50
It's not arrogance, MarMema, it's in the NT (Mk 16:16) "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved..."

That is different from what you originally said =>
One cannot be saved without baptism.

The clergy consensus today, after I asked them to share their wisdom on this matter, was that we do not say that one cannot be saved without baptism.

It not only limits God's choices to a ritual here on earth, but it goes against the concept of perfect (divine) love.

And the final advice given was this - when in doubt about these things, always ask yourself, what choice would be made by a God of Perfect Love?

127 posted on 02/29/2004 3:56:56 PM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema
That is different from what you originally said

The rest of Mark's verse says that those who don't believe won't be saved.

The implication is, politically correct or not, that it isn't enough to believe, but to be baptized to be saved. Among the nonbelievers who will not be saved can be both baptized and unbaptized -- but their fate is clearly stated in Mark 16:16.

How would anyone believe in Jesus and not be baptized? Yes, the thief on the cross believed in Jesus, and he wasn't baptized and was saved (and this is only accoridng to Luke!), but let's face it how often does that happen?

Why would someone out of a clear blue say "I believe in Jesus?" Another point is that Mark and Matthew do not say that either one of the thieves believed in Jesus, so Mark's statement in 16:16 is consistent with his version, setting baptism as the necessary step followed by faith in order to be saved.

Show me where it says that one does not have to be baptized and does not have to believe in order to be saved. We can only go by what the Gospels say. Calvinism makes it imperative -- it says that you have to be regenerated through baptism in order to be able to believe; in other words, without baptism you are so completely depraved that you are incapable of believing, and -- the famous Protestant maxim says -- salvation is through faith alone.

This is the same thing as that famous "for many" which the post-Vatican II changed to "for all." The Scripture clearly says Jesus came "for some." This goes hand in hand with the Calvinist position that all will not be saved. If that is the case, there are only two possibilities: either God doesn't want to or God can't because He doesn't won't to. But not everyone will be saved -- God-willing one way or another.

128 posted on 02/29/2004 7:36:46 PM PST by kosta50
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